40:00 10k ---> 3:20 marathon on low mileage?

12 week "cyle": took Hansons and transformed into Furman FIRST-like

Does Hansons say to train for a marathon on 20-30mpw

I wish you success whatever goal and strategy you pursue, but I'll be modestly surprised if you break 3:30. Optimum strategy to meet a particular goal is more or less even pace throughout with allowances for the hills. Whatever you do, post how it went.

keny wrote:

re-bump in search of 'Link', and also because the marathon is this Sunday, and I am not sure that given the NYC profile, starting much slower makes sense.

I kinda feel like going out at 7:45-7:50, picking it up towards 7:25-7:30 in the middle miles (10 to 20) and..happens what happens. I don't see myself breaking 3:20, but I'd like to at least try. If I hit mi 20 before 2:35 I still have a show while having some margin to slow down a lot and run about 3:30

PS. Over the last few runs my miles at 170 HR are now at 7:20 and 160 HR at 7:50, an improvement of 10 sec/mi. I've also lost considerable weight (roughly 10lbs) over the past 6 weeks to boost my chances :)

You have to start slow at NYC because you start on that bridge going uphill for the first mile.

thanks all. I'll stick to what has been said and hit the 10 miles at 8:00 min/mi average. I need to forget about 3:1x

to ukathleticscoach: all I meant is that I took the key workouts from Hanson on Tue/Thu, and ran harder long runs w/ part at MP while removing easy runs and replacing them with swimming. Hansons pros run 140 mpw, Hanson's commoners run 50 mpw on their plan and break 3. So my Hanson's for kids was designed to at least get me to the starting line injury free and minimally prepared

3 days to go. I'm stating at the abyss and freaking out!

keny wrote:

3 days to go. I'm stating at the abyss and freaking out!

What are you telling Mr. Abyss?

Kevin52 wrote:

keny wrote:

3 days to go. I'm stating at the abyss and freaking out!

What are you telling Mr. Abyss?

I meant 'staring into the abyss' and screwed up. I need to calm myself down and tell myself the big bad Mr. Wall will eat me if I go out in 7:30s, or even speed up to 7:30 in the middle miles. f me

I am in a very similar situation than yours for a December marathon. Agree with others that even pace is optimal. Perhaps Galloway would provide a better time outcome but have never tried it and feel reluctant.

Since you have been swimming, you might have a better aerobic base than you think and that will help carry you through. Another way of roughly predicting optimal race pace might be using your aerobic HR. You could approximate it by Maffetone's 180-age (maybe +5?)formula. Say you are 40, it would correspond to 140-145.

Looking at your splits (assuming you are 40?) that would be somewhere around 8:50 which would put you right on the ballpark of a 3:30 marathon according to this table (link below, borrowed from the LOWHRTR forum):

MAF....5k pace....5k time.....Marathon.....Mpace 13:00...9:00.........27:57..........4:32:29.......10:25 12:30...8:45.........27:11..........4:25:00.......10:07 12:00...8:30.........26:23..........4:17:12.........9:50 11:30...8:15.........25:37..........4:09:44.........9:32 11:00...8:00.........24:51..........4:02:15.........9:15 10:30..7:45..........24:04..........3:54:37.........8:58 10:00..7:30..........23:18..........3:47:09...........8:41 9:30....7:15..........22:31..........3:39:31...........8:23 9:00....7:00..........21:45..........3:32:02...........8:06 8:30....6:45..........20:58..........3:24:24...........7:49 8:00....6:30..........20:12..........3:16:55...........7:31 7:30....6:00..........18:38..........3:01:39...........6:56 7:00....5:30..........17:05..........2:46:32...........6:22 6:30....5:15..........16:19..........2:39:04...........6:05 6:00....5:00..........15:32..........2:31:26...........5:47 5:45....4:45..........14:45..........2:23:48...........5:30 5:30....4:30..........13:59..........2:16:19...........5:12 5:15....4:20..........13:28..........2:11:17...........5:01 5:00....4:15..........13:12....... ..2:08:41...........4:55

http://www.runningahead.com/groups/LOWHRTR/Forum/dbfe1f984af14c5dbb9c0930751abb55

Post your age if you don't mind and also please post a race report.

Thanks

Ok keny, I am going to buck the trend here and say that 3:20 is reasonable even given the mileage.

My first marathon was on just about the same mileage as you but your workouts were even faster (actually I don't know what they were since I never wore a watch) and I ran 3:23. My second marathon, again, my training was similar to yours, except I never broke 40 minutes in a 10k and I ran a 3:15. My goal was 3:10 (haha, good thing I didn't consult LR) I went out in 7:15 but died and just tried to hang on to 8:00 pace in the last few miles. The last few miles were also uphill. So, yeah, starting at 8:00 and the getting to 7:30s is a good idea.

Have fun!!!

One more thing when I say "start at 8:00" I mean just the first 1 or 2 miles. I agree that the best way to run is even splits or a slight negative.

Walking breaks is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of. There is no phsyiological reason that it could be better than even pacing. It actually makes your HR go higher, like intervals do.

I was a 42 min 10k runner when I ran 3:22 marathon on 40mpw.

Then at 60mph I went to 40min 10k, and 3:09 marathon

just takes consistency

I had a 44min 10K when I ran 3:20 for my first marathon on 20-30 mpw. My training, if you want to call it that, had a lot more longer runs. Even with quite a few 18+ and 20 mile runs, my legs were completely toast the last 4 miles. The tricky thing is that I was feeling really good until the last 10K.

leashless beast wrote:

One more thing when I say "start at 8:00" I mean just the first 1 or 2 miles. I agree that the best way to run is even splits or a slight negative.

This is the key. I am now convince I don't want to force running 8:00s for too long, unless I am not feeling good.

So the plan is 8:00s for the first 5k (it's NYC, so mile 1 in 8:30, mile 2 downhill in 7:30, mile 3 relaxed in 8)

On 4th ave mi 3 to 8 I will run by feel, and hopefully i can stabilize my HR in the low 160s at or under 7:45. From mi 8 and up I'll reasses and hopefully run 7:25-7:30s from there.

The conclusion: I don't care enough about a 3:30. If I go for 3:20, crash and burn and slow down to 3:35, at least I'll have tried. And if I run 3:27 with a large positive split I might be happier than if I had run a 3:26 with no risk. So yeah, I'll start a little slower but will settle into an efficient and fast pace after the first 5k.

If will post a race report here for sure.

pretty easy wrote:

I was a 42 min 10k runner when I ran 3:22 marathon on 40mpw.

Then at 60mph I went to 40min 10k, and 3:09 marathon

just takes consistency

Re: consistency. My mileage was in the 20 to 40 mpw all year, and the last 12 weeks only 23-27 because I wanted to focus on quality runs 3x/week.

Thanks for your time and references. You have very good endurance sir. Now I feel like I could run 42' for the 10k in flip flops, yet 3:22 seems baller to me!

Doable, but wrote:

I had a 44min 10K when I ran 3:20 for my first marathon on 20-30 mpw. My training, if you want to call it that, had a lot more longer runs. Even with quite a few 18+ and 20 mile runs, my legs were completely toast the last 4 miles. The tricky thing is that I was feeling really good until the last 10K.

OK I am assuming you are not trolling, even though it's hard to believe. Isn't a 44' 10k something like 7:10 pace? And you ran 7:38 pace for the marathon. That's either genius endurance or you just didn't try hard for the 10k!?

In any case though, your marathon results is pretty spectacular.

Coamo wrote:

[...]Another way of roughly predicting optimal race pace might be using your aerobic HR. You could approximate it by Maffetone's 180-age (maybe +5?)formula. Say you are 40, it would correspond to 140-145.

Looking at your splits (assuming you are 40?) that would be somewhere around 8:50 which would put you right on the ballpark of a 3:30 marathon according to this table (link below, borrowed from the LOWHRTR forum): [...]

Post your age if you don't mind and also please post a race report.

Coamo: thanks! But I am not sure I understand the table. I am 29, soon to be 30, male. 180-30+5 = 155.

I know this HR very well. At 155 I am almost exactly at 8:30 min/mi.

From all my progressive workouts, it has been like this:

8:30 around 155

8:00 around 163-165

7:30 around 170-172

7:00 around 175-178

my max is 197+, my resting HR 48ish

So what does the 8:30 at HR 155 say??

keny wrote:

So what does the 8:30 at HR 155 say??

Oh I think I get it now. 8:30 would be 3:24 in that table, but the slope is pretty steep since 8:00 is 3:17.

So if it works I'm near a 3:24, but if it were 8:15 instead of 8:30 that'd yield 3:20. Interesting.

keny wrote:

The conclusion: I don't care enough about a 3:30. If I go for 3:20, crash and burn and slow down to 3:35, at least I'll have tried. And if I run 3:27 with a large positive split I might be happier than if I had run a 3:26 with no risk. So yeah, I'll start a little slower but will settle into an efficient and fast pace after the first 5k.

If will post a race report here for sure.

I like your spirit!

I'm the same. I can't really get myself out of bed at 5:30 am if I don't have a big enough goal.

keny wrote:

Doable, but wrote:

I had a 44min 10K when I ran 3:20 for my first marathon on 20-30 mpw. My training, if you want to call it that, had a lot more longer runs. Even with quite a few 18+ and 20 mile runs, my legs were completely toast the last 4 miles. The tricky thing is that I was feeling really good until the last 10K.

OK I am assuming you are not trolling, even though it's hard to believe. Isn't a 44' 10k something like 7:10 pace? And you ran 7:38 pace for the marathon. That's either genius endurance or you just didn't try hard for the 10k!?

In any case though, your marathon results is pretty spectacular.

I started training for 2009 CIM in September following a Runner's World Smart Coach plan that peaked at 32 miles a week. Up to starting the Smart Coach plan, I would run 4 miles at what I thought was a hard pace (7:10 to 7:00 min/mi) each Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, as well as a 12 mile run each Sunday at 8:00 min/mi. Yes, I know it was a stupid running schedule, but at the time I did not know any better.

I did not race much back then. That summer, I ran a 10K and actually finished just north of 45 min with a recent best of 44:10. I did not run any races after starting the training plan except for the marathon in December. I have not run a marathon since then and I am signed up for CIM again this year with the hopes of breaking 2:55. My training is a lot different now.