Captainrobbo/Eurodonkey: strength for masters

One question, actually. You mentioned some Youtube videos. Is there a specific one you could recommend for the weighted split squat and one for the single-leg deadlift? The videos I've found don't all look the same.

Well I'm a talentless hack of a hobby jogger, but I love running and after a quad injury found I had to strengthen my legs to even be able to try fast running again. Intuitively I arrived at doing one or two sets of leg exercises after easy runs, when the muscles are warmed up but not tired. I started doing squats and lunges and carefully worked to the point of being able to do pistol squats. About the pistols: this is a great exercise, but requires confidence, technique and concentration. The free leg doesn't need to be dead straight, just keeping it off the ground is enough. It may seem like an impossible move at first (strengthwise too), but it can be done by the average person. I also highly recommend hill sprints.

Have you noticed any effect on your running, compared to how things were before the quad injury?

Hi all,

I've had two letsrun-free weeks due to travel, jetlag and a hug work backlog - sorry for not chiming in sooner. Couple of quick thoughts...

I fall over at least half the time when attempting a pistol, and have vowed to get it right before Christmas! What I actually do is what Mike Boyle calls a 'box squat', which is different to what powerlifters call a 'box squat': I stand on an 18 inch bench, so I can squat right down and the free leg can hang down at a 30' or 45' angle without hitting the ground. I still need a weight to do it - with bodyweight only I can tip over backwards really easily. I started with a 4kg medicine ball held in front at arms length for balance, and have now progressed to a 12kg dumbell held a bit closer in front. Doing them on a step or wall is hitting the leg muscles just as hard, without the extra 'party trick' challenge.

I wouldn't see calves and chin-ups as 'either-or', you can do both if you have time.

I'm where you are with calf raises. If you have a dumbell or kettlebell handy, you can load up the single-leg calf raises a little by using one hand for balance and the other holding a weight. I suspect at least half the benefit of this is getting a good stretch and that one needs some sort of 'springy' exercise to really work the calves, but I'm happy doing slow stuff myself until Christmas as my calves were in a bad state after the track season.

> One question: is there anything wrong with doing the

> warmup routine, doing my run, and then doing the three

> strength exercises afterwards? That will probably be

> easiest for me logistically.

That's pretty much optimal. Just bear in mind that after a really long or hard run, you may not be able to lift quite as much with your legs as you did after an easier run. I know that sounds kind of obvious, but some people get unduly stressed if they have to 'back off' and lift a lighter weight than the previous day!

Thanks again.

Any advice on the load, now that I'm using weights? I'm just holding a 15 or 20 pound dumbbell in each hand for the split squats and one-legged deadlift. I could be using much heavier weights, I think, but right now I'm trying to go slow. I had a reminder about specificity this weekend when I played keep-away with my kids as they were warming up for a soccer tournament. Felt fine while playing; hip flexor was screaming at me the next day.

Anyway, my question is whether, and how soon, I should move towards the feeling that I only have a couple more good reps left in me (instead of indefinitely many).

Test today: standing long jumps of 6'10", 6'5", 6'10", best 40m in 6.61, vertical jump of 17". Colder today (40F) than previous tests and track was wet; I'm telling myself in better conditions I would have blazed a sub-6.60. I'll try to do future tests at the indoor track. Today it was too busy.

Last three weeks have been five times per week with the warmup routine I described earlier, whatever I'm running (mostly easy because I've been fighting off a cold), then three lifts: single-leg Romanian dead lift, split squat with rear foot on some sort of object 6"-12" off the ground, and lat. pulldown. For the first two I've stayed at a 20-lb dumbbell in each hand. With the split squat that's because I can manipulate the difficulty with what I do with the rear foot; with the single-leg deadlift it's because my balance is still poor. Pull-downs have been 135 or 150. The only strain there seems to be in my upper abdomen, occasionally. I count hill sprints (generally once per week, 3-4 x 30-50 meters) as a weight session.

Captainrobbo, I'll try to keep updating since you asked. Please let me know if it's no longer useful to you.

Master of none wrote:

Test today: standing long jumps of 6'10", 6'5", 6'10", best 40m in 6.61, vertical jump of 17".

Congratulations. You're getting stronger and faster!

My apologies again for absence; it was a crazy couple of weeks in the day-job.

To answer your previous question: if you feel good on a particular day and think you could lift a bit more on those lifts at the end, then just do it. The idea is to do a few heavy reps on the good days, and drop back the weight (but still practice the moves) on days when your legs don't feel so good. However, the few weeks you have spent getting the movement really 'nailed' with a lower weight will undoubtedly pay off. Just don't shoot for any new records on the weights in the last 2-3 days before a race!

My training has started to get a little more interrupted lately, as mileage picks up and work has got a bit crazier, and I have Saturday races. My key leg exercise is a single-leg squat standing on a bench, holding a dumbell. I've been very happy to find this improved from a 6kg med ball (which I need to avoid falling over backwards!) in late September, up to a 17.5kg dumbell this weekend (which, strangely, came just after getting home from a race). I'm 8 weeks in and still improving, not evenly but in jumps just when I least expect it every week or two, which is really nice.

It would be great to hear if there has been any interference with your running sessions, or if you feel you could keep this up. How are you feeling afterwards?

training every day just seems to be a bit much.

Thanks! I think the jumps are legitimately better. Not quite sure yet whether the sprints show meaningful improvement or random fluctuation (for example, last test's 6.18 was a big outlier). Am I correct in understanding that I should keep doing this test every 3 weeks or so?

My question on the lifts is specifically about the split squats. Up to now if I'm feeling good I either increase the weight of the dumbbells or I raise the level of the rear foot (making it more of a one-legged exercise). That choice is pretty much made at random; whatever I feel like doing is what I do. Should I be following some other principle?

My running has shifted over the last few weeks because of a cold and also feeling I had done enough of the same kind of work for awhile (like 8 x 3 minutes fast, 2 minute jog; or 5x8/3; or hill repetitions of 60-90 seconds). These past few weeks my running has sort of mimicked the weight sessions. A typical day might be exercises, jog a mile or two, 10 minutes at marathon effort, 3-4 x 200m around 3K effort (maybe closer to mile effort at the end), and possibly another 10 minutes at marathon pace if I feel like it. Once per week short hill sprints instead of the 200s. I've been doing that sort of thing maybe four to five days per week, with the other days just easy jogging. None of my runs for the last three weeks has had the word "hard" in it; they're all easy, medium, or medium-easy. At some point I'll resume the tempos, long intervals, longish hills, etc., but I think I'll let it come to me. If it hasn't come by mid-December, I may reassess.

For a few weeks the exercises and weight sessions seemed to make my legs feel heavier during easy running (but not medium or fast running). By now I'd say I don't notice much difference. I do think I can keep this up, especially since a minimal "go through the motions" session counts as success. I ordinarily feel some fatigue or soreness somewhere after lifting (later in the day or perhaps the next day); typically hamstrings or glutes. But it's what I think of as a "good" soreness: even on left and right sides, pretty even through the length of the muscle, and feels better, not worse, when I use the muscle a few times again.

KPack--strangely enough, the time commitment of 5 days/wk for this limited session feels less onerous than a 2-3 day/wk schedule with lengthier workout. That may just reflect my own daily schedule or even psychology. And since the sessions are all by definition submaximal, there's no burnout (at least for me, so far). Whenever I feel like wimping out and going super-easy, I do so.

Today's test at the indoor track: 6'8", 6'5", 6'6" for the standing long jump, 6.4 was the best 40m time, and 18" was the best vertical jump.

Access to a weight room will be spotty for the next three weeks, so I'll want to figure out an alternative for my lifting protocol. I'm thinking that after doing my normal warm-up routine (described earlier; I'm still doing 7 reps for each exercise), I may do deep step-ups in place of Bulgarian split squats, and standing long jumps (perhaps sometimes launching from two feet, sometimes from one; but always landing on two) in place of the one-legged Romanian deadlift. In any case, what I'm looking for is one squat-type exercise and one hinge-type. Other suggestions appreciated!

Running has been in the neighborhood of 70 miles per week (after one lower week of 50), with some moderate stamina-oriented workouts creeping back in.

Sorry to miss your previous post; I've been off the boards a bit lately. Answers follow below.Funnily enough, we're running a talk with pretty much exactly the advice I gave you next Monday (19th) in south west London, so if there are any Londoners here, come on down...http://groupspaces.com/kingstonandpolyevents/item/225049

I'd say that's probably too often. As you're finding, the jumps and sprints fluctuate too much to have reallly clear signs of progress. My own training group do their 'test sessions' every 8-9 weeks.

However, you SHOULD be seeing a clear progression in the weights you are shifting, with PBs most weeks. How has that gone on your chosen exercises?

I would say to stick with one exercise. If you can do a Rear Foot Elevated Split Squat (RFESS), stick with it, and focus on adding weight to that henceforth. I think of this one as one-and-a-half legs.

(By the way I find it much more comfortable with the back foot on the sofa, or on a cushion or rolled up piece of clothing on a hard surface. It adapts to the foot shape so you aren't rolling the toes around).

Great. So, no missed or messed-up running sessions? That's what we were aiming for.

Again, that's great to know. Very few runners have trained this way AFAICT, but it certainly works for me.

The only really important question is: are you getting stronger? Sticking with one exercise and attempting to increase the weight a little at some point each week will tell you that.

Master of none wrote:

18" was the best vertical jump.

That's your best yet, right? Great progress from 14in two months.

Access to a weight room will be spotty for the next three weeks, so I'll want to figure out an alternative for my lifting protocol.

Your suggestions are fine. All that matters is that you are getting stronger. So pick something, stick at it, and try to make sure the reps or the weight are increasing. Or, if you decide you just want to maintain for 3 weeks, that's cool too, as long as it's a conscious decision, and then you could cut back to 2x per week.

If you want some more ideas...

(1) for the squat, spend 3 weeks working towards a single leg squat. The kind I do is the 44-sec video on this page (only with far less weight!). To start out, you'll need some weight in your hands - maybe 5lb each - as a counterbalance.

If you prefer to go straight for the pistol, here's a good tutorial...

(2) For the hinge, standing jumps are great; or you can do these when you feel less explosive. But since you are doing hill sprints regularly I doubt you're weak in this area.

BTW my local supermarket is selling 10kg (22lb) salt bags for almost nothing at the moment to 'be prepared' for snow; a couple of these and an old rucksack make a great adjustable weight set.

Hope this helps,

Just so you know I'm eating my own dogfood, as they say at Microsoft: 5 weeks ago I wrote this...

captainrobbo wrote:

I started with a 4kg medicine ball held in front at arms length for balance, and have now progressed to a 12kg dumbell held a bit closer in front.

I was getting a bit worried as I've had a couple of weeks of less regular weight training - one ill, one deliberate taper around a race. But I'm now doing 20kg.

I also popped into the gym a couple of times. I don't do back squats often as they make my back very tired, but without any regular barbell squatting, I have managed to add 10% to my max squat from previous years.

Best of all, I've had my busiest patch at work for over 5 years, but still been able to fit the work in, because it takes so little time.

So I'm even more confident of the programme than I was before. More volunteer testers would be welcome ;-)

well I'll tell you, I'm doing nothing but step ups, single leg squats, one legged jumps, calf raises 2x a week and it looks like I am getting bigger. Not sure if it is a good thing or not, will have to wait and see. If I wanted I think I could have monstrously big legs. Maybe I should shoot for that and freak out other runners.

What sort of sets and reps are you doing?

I really would not worry about a little more leg muscle - maybe its what you need to run faster. Have you got slower since starting this routine?

Best of luck with the talk!

To answer your questions:

-No missed or messed-up running sessions due to weights, as far as I can tell. "Could I have run faster without having done the weights" is a question I can't answer, especially because I'm not doing any max-effort running sessions this time of year.

-Stronger? Again, hard to say because I've been cautious, perhaps over-cautious. On the one-legged Romanian Dead Lifts I sometimes use 20 and sometimes 25 lbs. in each hand; one time I used 30 lbs for a final set of 2 reps. If I really wanted to focus on testing the relevant muscles I think I would more weight. However, I'm still slightly wobbly, unsure of my technique, and unwilling to risk some annoying injury in a muscle I've never heard of for the sake of faster progress with the weights. Using 25 lb. dumbbells does make my legs feel like they've done some work; I figure that's good enough for my purposes, and ten reps with 20lbs when I just don't want to have to say I skipped the session. I'm content to let those numbers creep up without much intentionality on my part. But perhaps that's a mistaken view? Also, I'm taking literally the advice that I should never, ever fail. Therefore I don't try anything I'm unsure about. In all, I can say I'm more competent at these lifts, and probably somewhat stronger, but not yet competent enough to know how much stronger. Perhaps it's time to get more aggressive with the progression?

On the rear foot elevated squat: it make a huge difference how high the rear foot is. It feels like hip flexor tightness is the problem here. So during my time away from the weight room I may try to make progress just by getting that rear foot higher and higher (with only body weight).

Thanks for the advice on progression to pistol squats and on Dan John's metabolic swings. I'll certainly try the latter when I'm not feeling explosive enough for standing long jumps. As for step-ups vs. RFESS vs. progression to pistol squats, I'll see what seems to work best away from weights. We'll be traveling and staying at other people's homes, so I'm not sure I can count on those salt bags. I'll probably improvise.

Anyway, my experience with this routine has been quite positive; I just want to be honest about the limits to any quantitative claims I could make at this point.

Thanks for all your advice!

Master of none wrote:

-Stronger? Again, hard to say because I've been cautious, perhaps over-cautious.......I'm content to let those numbers creep up without much intentionality on my part. But perhaps that's a mistaken view?

I wouldn't want to push anyone harder than they want to go, but the whole point of doing it this often is to make fairly rapid progress. For this you have to get into the habit of lifting close to your maximum a couple of times per week and deciding that those numbers are going to go up. Otherwise, you are just repeating the same stimulus.

We clearly need a 'wobble free' exercise. 3 suggestions, please try them:

(1) try to stabilise the RFESS with a soft pad (clothing, cushion, towel) under the rear foot and whatever height works well.

(2) put a strap, towel or rope around two doorknobs on an open door, a lamppost or a tree, and pretend you have a TRX:

Lovely exercise, absolute full depth and helps train you for the pistol. Since this is 'weightless', you have to progress by varying the angle. If your rope is up at 45' then your arms are helping quite a bit; if your rope is at waist height, it's just helping you balance.

(3) 'skater squat' on one leg:

Something soft under your knee, make sure it touches down on the mat/cushion but you don't rest your weight. This one works great with dumbells as well, and has a 'repeatable depth' which is self regulating. Not as deep as the pistol-style one but still do-able anywhere.

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I will backtrack a bit on the 'never fail' part. You don't have to do 5 reps every time. If you do a set of 5 and it's manageable, try 3 reps a bit heavier on the next set, then maybe 2 even heavier. And if at any point you feel "I managed that rep, but not sure I'll get through another one with good form", then stop the set. What we must avoid is practicing poor form.

Doing, say, 5 sets of 2 in order to find a correct working weight or test your limits is absolutely fine and to be encouraged.

Once you've found an exercise that you are comfortable doing and you can balance (which gets a lot easier as you add weight, even as the lift gets harder), I think you absolutely should try to add weight whenever you feel good, and I would expect to see personal bests at some point most weeks for a couple of months.

Thanks! I'll try it.

I just realised it's three months since the thread started.

Master, how are you getting on? Has anyone else been on the program?

My training has been a bit patchy with various travels, coughs and colds. Despite that the trend is up - my single-leg squats have gone up from 6kg with a med ball up to 25kgx2 or 20kgx5. And I was lucky enough to end up in a good hotel gym with a barbell just before New Year and popped out my first couple of hundred kilo (225lb) below-parallel squats, despite not having trained for it. So I am even more confident in this program than before. I just wish these germs would leave me alone so I could run hard ;-)