Jeff Wigand wrote:
What's wrong with Reporters? wrote:When I started as a young kid in 1978 the record setting had already leveled off quite a bit and if you told us that someone would lap Henry Rono in a 10k and beat him by a FULL 200m in the 5000 I would have never believed it.
You didn't think anybody could run significantly faster than an alcoholic?
Shut your piehole. Rono was a great champion and the best the world had to offer from '78-'80.
Not surprising at all considering everyone is juiced now.
BS wrote:
Here's your answer:
1) The worlds a bigger place then it was 30 years ago - in fact it has added about a billion more people. More people means more outliers
2) There are a lot more Africans in general running and and Kenyans and Ethiopians in specific, and they are running longer and with better training and resources. Many happen to be very good runners, this increases the pool of world class athletes - for every 1 Henry Rono, now you have 15 and many of the best ones hang around longer.
3) US population has undergone the same boom in pop that begat those great running days. This has led to a lot better times.
4) Even without drugs, science and technology have helped elite runners recover faster and, since they can earn a living doing so, run fewer races but at a higher level.
5) Great running means more great running - elites feed on the performances of other. Look how many broke 4 within 5 years of Bannister.
Bullsh*t! The times exploded within few years and then practically levelled off. Which means that the pace of natural improvement remained the same. The only difference was that all the elite athletes ran doped with an unnatural aid. There was no indication that Africans would markedly improve in the 800/1500 m, and in the 5-10 km, the times started to decrease only slowly after 1990. Until 1995, no Kenyan has been able to break 3:32 in the 1500 m!!!
In reality, today's athletics is in the state of decay and especially track events have the lowest level of international competition since mid 80's. Furthermore, in many events, limits of human performances have been already reached during 80's. All the improvement of world records in track since 80's has been only due to drugs.
13:26.6 would still be top 10....only 10 seconds from top 5.
2002 was the last time 13:26.6 would have made it in the top 5 US list.
The 10k is very top heavy with Rupp and Solinsky on top and everyone else over half a lap back.
Alan
Runningart2004 wrote:
13:26.6 would still be top 10....only 10 seconds from top 5.
2002 was the last time 13:26.6 would have made it in the top 5 US list.
The 10k is very top heavy with Rupp and Solinsky on top and everyone else over half a lap back.
Alan
There are a few that could reasonably run a very fast 10k. . . Ritz, and other's that are injured/not running so hot this year. Normally, the "I could run under 27 if I was healthy" excuse would be laughed at.
Sports physiologist wrote:
BS wrote:Here's your answer:
1) The worlds a bigger place then it was 30 years ago - in fact it has added about a billion more people. More people means more outliers
2) There are a lot more Africans in general running and and Kenyans and Ethiopians in specific, and they are running longer and with better training and resources. Many happen to be very good runners, this increases the pool of world class athletes - for every 1 Henry Rono, now you have 15 and many of the best ones hang around longer.
3) US population has undergone the same boom in pop that begat those great running days. This has led to a lot better times.
4) Even without drugs, science and technology have helped elite runners recover faster and, since they can earn a living doing so, run fewer races but at a higher level.
5) Great running means more great running - elites feed on the performances of other. Look how many broke 4 within 5 years of Bannister.
Bullsh*t! The times exploded within few years and then practically levelled off. Which means that the pace of natural improvement remained the same. The only difference was that all the elite athletes ran doped with an unnatural aid. There was no indication that Africans would markedly improve in the 800/1500 m, and in the 5-10 km, the times started to decrease only slowly after 1990. Until 1995, no Kenyan has been able to break 3:32 in the 1500 m!!!
In reality, today's athletics is in the state of decay and especially track events have the lowest level of international competition since mid 80's. Furthermore, in many events, limits of human performances have been already reached during 80's. All the improvement of world records in track since 80's has been only due to drugs.
Ridiculous. How are those throws world records coming?
Jeff Wigand wrote:
What's wrong with Reporters? wrote:When I started as a young kid in 1978 the record setting had already leveled off quite a bit and if you told us that someone would lap Henry Rono in a 10k and beat him by a FULL 200m in the 5000 I would have never believed it.
You didn't think anybody could run significantly faster than an alcoholic?
Generally, no, not when actually racing Rono. Steve Ovett did it, but it took a world record.
Runningart2004 wrote:
The 10k is very top heavy with Rupp and Solinsky on top and everyone else over half a lap back.
Alan
So is the 5k. Just like Morocco in the 90's, with four or five Aouita trained athletes running sub 13 and sub 27:10 and then a huge gap. Completely against the bell curve you see from Ethiopia and Kenya. Also, there are similarities between Aouita and Salazar, both over-zealous athletes who later became coaches coaches willing to do anything to win, but still falling short of the Kenyans.
Still think Oregon Project is clean?
I was There wrote:
Jeff Wigand wrote:You didn't think anybody could run significantly faster than an alcoholic?
Shut your piehole. Rono was a great champion and the best the world had to offer from '78-'80.
Yes, and he was a terrible alcoholic. I can't understand why you'd think that his performances are at all representative of what someone in ideal conditions is capable of.
Oh, we all remember the darkest days of US distance running that span from 1999 to 2003. Stember would run a 3:35 and all the fanboys would be calling him a stud. In those days it was not much better in the 5k. A 13:20 then was a miracle time. One of the few bright spots from that era was Broe and Torres who make Olympic and WC finals with respectable PRs of around 13:15. Another bright spot was the fast Krummenacker who won the world indoor 800, and Jason Pryah who somehow managed to make the 2000 Olympic finals with a 3:36pr.
During this period no American 1500 meter runner made the IAAF top ten for 4 consecutive years, which had not happened in nearly a century. Webb and then Lagat changed that pretty quickly.
Excellent Preparation Of course will get any endurance athlete performing at their best.
What's wrong with Reporters? wrote:
Rbyrne wrote:yep, and there's people on these boards that say nothing has changed with training methods in the past 30 years...I wonder what those same people credit the improvement to???
Not sure which "side" you are arguing, but what training methods have changed since 1980?
I have seen outlines of the Portuguese, American, East German, British and African methods that yielded the top-10 all-time performances in a range from 27:40 down to 27:20 from 1975-1985. I have seen outlines of the American, Mexican, East African, Moroccan, and Italian methods that dominated the era from 1986-1992 and from 27:20 down to 27:00. Last I have seen the methods of the East Africans and Moroccans that have dominated the last 20 years and from 27:00 down to 26:17.
I don't see any huge differences group to group or era to era. I see that since EPO was introduced the records have fallen faster at 1500 to 10k than anyone would EVER have predicted and I see that the faster the top times get the LESS each individual seems to race, meaning they are ducking each other, but mostly ducking the testers.
Really what are these supposed differences in training? I have an open mind and don't read about the methods in 2010-2011 enough to really know what you are talking about, but would like to.
When I started as a young kid in 1978 the record setting had already leveled off quite a bit and if you told us that someone would lap Henry Rono in a 10k and beat him by a FULL 200m in the 5000 I would have never believed it.
Please don't tell me that "they do their intervals faster" ... because OF COURSE they do. This year's top 10 all ran around 50 seconds faster than the top-10 from 1985. So they should be doing their intervals about 2-seconds per lap faster than that era.
Yes, but remember Ron Clarke ran 27:39 on cinder track in 1965. Is it really that wack that the record is now 26:17 47 years later?
http://www.athletix.org/statistics/wr10000men.htmWhen I saw 26:48, my thoughts immediately jumped to Matt Lane being all excited about a 13:24 at the Stanford Invite back in 2004. (he got 2nd there too). Wow, US distance running was at rock bottom in 2004 aside from Deena Kastor.
When I saw 26:48, my thoughts immediately jumped to Matt Lane being all excited about a 13:24 at the Stanford Invite back in 2004. (he got 2nd there too). Wow, US distance running was at rock bottom in 2004 aside from Deena Kastor.[/quote]
bangalangadanga wrote:
When I saw 26:48, my thoughts immediately jumped to Matt Lane being all excited about a 13:24 at the Stanford Invite back in 2004. (he got 2nd there too). Wow, US distance running was at rock bottom in 2004 aside from Deena Kastor.
America had a silver medalist in the Men's Marathon, too, that year.
When I first started running as a sophomore in high school, the WR was 13:24.2 by Kip Keino. So don't even get me started on what I remember, because I've probably forgotten more than... The year when I ran my fastest three mile, the WR in the 5K was 13:22.2........ gawd.......
yuck...
2004 Payton Jordan Invitational
Men 5000 Meter Run
**********************************************
Joseph KOSKEI, Kenya, 13:16.83
Mark CARROLL, Ireland, 13:18.75
Matt LANE, USA, 13:27.06
Bolota ASMEROM, USA, 13:31.26
Eric SAVOTH, USA, 13:33.17
Matt GABRIELSON, USA, 13:34.61
Tim BROE, USA, 13:35.40
Matt GONZALES, USA, 13:35.59
Jeff SCHIEBLER, Canada, 13:37.12
Lyle WEESE, USA, 13:38.01
Jason LEHMKULE, USA, 13:38.73
Adam TENFORDE, USA, 13:39.47
Luke WATSON, USA, 13:39.49
Sean GRAHAM, USA, 13:41.57
Clint WELLS, USA, 13:43.28
RYAN KIRKPATRICK, USA, 13:44.34
Sandu REBENCIUC, USA, 13:56.30
Fasil BIZUNEH, USA, 13:58.13
Joe DRISCOLL, USA, 14:01.51
Greg JEMMERSON, USA, 14:08.31
Justin YOUNG, USA, 14:09.70
Brendan RODGERS, USA, 14:13.87
Peter GILMORE, USA, 14:20.63
Forrest TAHDOOAHNIPPAH, USA, 14:40.97.
Shawn FOUND, USA, DNF
James Carney, USA, DNF
Ryan BAK, USA, DNF
Matt DOWNIN, USA, DNF
Ryan WOODS, USA, DNF
Brad HAUSER, USA, DNF
CHRIS GRAFF, USA, DNF
2004 Stanford Invite