Its not Mondo
Its not Mondo
Feel badly for Leer, but this is great news for us in the pro-diving-at-the-finish-line crowd.
The photo's pretty clear. I've read several thousand photos over the past 38 years. If any part of the torso of one runner is in front of the torso of another, the place goes to the first runner. With shoulders it's an experience/judgement call. Technically, the ball of the shoulder doesn't count, the socket does. Mechanically, twisting the body so that the shoulder precedes the rest of the torso can gain 2-3" from a straight-on lean. So experience and a rudimentary knowledge of anatomy helps in interpreting the picture. As to the question of "where is the finish?", the whole picture is the finish line with the camera recording paper-thin slices of the athletes as they come across it. The faster the runner, the skinnier they appear since their body parts spend less time crossing the line.
Avocado's Number wrote:
These people aren't very big on following their own rules, are they?
http://www.usatf.org/events/2011/IAAFWorldOutdoorChampionships/entry/selectionProcedures.asp
Hmmn, reading through those it sounds rules it sounds like Bauhs will have to run an A-standard somewhere to make the team after all.
Let me clarify one thing. I said, "She also then added that everything really is at the discretion of the Committee Chairman (John Chaplin) so that leaves open the possibility if only 1 guy in the 4 got the "A" standard and then 5th place David Torrence or for that matter US leader Russell Brown were to hit the "A" standard they could be added to the team to let the US have a full 3 member team."
Jill did not speculate about Russell Brown or anyone in particular outside of the 4 guys through Leer chasing the standard. I was trying to understand why only 4 guys could chase it as it left open the possibility of the US not sending a full team and that is when she added that things are ultimately at the discretion of the Chair.
in all honesty wrote:
Hmmn, reading through those it sounds rules it sounds like Bauhs will have to run an A-standard somewhere to make the team after all.
I'm positive you are wrong on that. Countries can send two athletes with an "A" standard and one with a "B". Teg and Rupp have the "A" Bauhs has the "B". Thus they call go.
wejo wrote:
in all honesty wrote:Hmmn, reading through those it sounds rules it sounds like Bauhs will have to run an A-standard somewhere to make the team after all.
I'm positive you are wrong on that. Countries can send two athletes with an "A" standard and one with a "B". Teg and Rupp have the "A" Bauhs has the "B". Thus they call go.
Yes, I know that's according to the IAAF regulations, but take a look at the USATF regulations:
Automatic Qualification:
The top three (3) rank order finishers in each event at the 2011 USA Track & Field Championships will automatically select themselves to the USATF team for the World Championships (the “Team”), provided that each has achieved the applicable IAAF “A” Standard and meets all other qualifications. The next ranked order finisher shall serve as the alternate, provided that he or she has achieved at least the applicable IAAF “B” Standard.
According to this, since Scott was the third rank order finisher but does not have the A-standard he is not automatically selected to the USATF team. Elligible by IAAF standards but not automatically on the team.
It then goes on to say:
Other Qualification:
If each of the top four (4) rank order finishers has not achieved the IAAF “A” standard, each athlete among the top four (4) finishers who has not achieved the “A” standard will have until midnight PDT on August 8, 2011 to achieve the “A” standard. Results information must be received by USATF by said deadline at the following e-mail address:
sandy.snow@usatf.org
In other words, since Scott does not have the A standard he has until midnight on Aug. 8 to get it. It's a bit hard to parse in that they're now saying top four in this section, which seems to suggest that they would put the 4th placer on the team if he has the A-standard over someone in the top 3 who only has the B-standard. That seems to be exactly the situation based on the results at nationals.
If after August 8, 2011 any of the top four (4) rank order finishers have not achieved the “A” standard, USATF may, in its discretion, enter one (1) athlete who has not achieved the “A” standard, provided that said athlete has achieved the “B” standard in that event during the qualifying period.
This seems to say that if Scott hasn't scored the A-standard by Aug. 8 then it is up to USATF's discretion whether or not he goes on the team. Based on other recent threads I think we all know what that probably means.
More circumstantially, Mammoth TC tweeted the following:
Congrats to @AngelaBizzarri & Amy Hastings on making the World Team with new PR's of 15:14 & 15:16! & Jen Rhines made the World squad last night in the 10,000m & Scotty finished 3rd in the men's 10. Our team does not suck.
No mention of Scott being on the team. Based on USATF rules it looks likely he'll end up alternate if he doesn't run the A-standard somewhere.
So, Is Curtis, who has the "A" on the team or off as an alternate if Bauhs does not make the A standard ?
The A Standard is what exactly? 27:40, correct?
Trialswatcher wrote:
So, Is Curtis, who has the "A" on the team or off as an alternate if Bauhs does not make the A standard ?
The A Standard is what exactly? 27:40, correct?
That's what it sounds like. Curtis would be on and Bauhs picked as alternate, assuming USATF discretion swings that way. Yes, sub-27:40.
If I'm reading all this correctly then I guess a lot of us owe Larry Rawson an apology on this point, at least.
SCOTTY BAUHS IS GUARNATEED TO RUN AT WORLDS.
ONE B-STADARD IS "PROTECTED" IF INSIDE TOP 3.
10K IS SET.
800 AND 5000 SET
1500
MOST AGREE THAT CENTRO MAY ONLY GET B, SO HE IS GOING FOR SURE. AFTER HIM, THE NEXT 3 (MANZANO, WHEATING, LEER) CAN ALL CHASE, BUT IF CENTRO DOES TAKE THE ONE B-SLOT, THEY WILL NEED TO ACHIEVE A-STANDARD. IF THE SCENARIO PRESENTS ITSELF THAT SAY ONLY WHEATING IS ABLE TO (MANZANO HAS JUST RUN SO POORLY AND I DON'T BELEIVE LEER CAN RUN SUB-3:35), THEN A RUSSELL BROWN FOR EXAMPLE, IF ATTAINED THE A-STANDARD, WOULD BE PLACED ON TEAM BECAUSE WE WOULD BE SILLY TO NOT SEND A FULL TEAM.
I PERSONALLY BELIEVE IT WILL SHAKE OUT:
CENTRO WITH A B
WHEATING WITH AN A
STEEPLE
NELSON WITH A IS SET
HULING WITH A B IS SET, BUT ASSUMING HE RUNS A STEEPLE IN EUROPE WILL GET IT. DEPENDING IF HULING GETS A, ALCORN IS SET BECAUSE HE HAS B. SCENARIO THAT MACADMAS GETS TO GO IS HULING DOESN'T ATTAIN A AND GETS IN WITH B AND ALCORN CAN'T GET A AND MACADAMS GETS A.
I PERSONALLY BELIEVE IT WILL SHAKE OUT:
NELSON WITH AN A
HULING WITH AN A
ALCORN WITH A B
LAMONG WITH AN A (at the end of the day)
very positive wrote:
SCOTTY BAUHS IS GUARNATEED TO RUN AT WORLDS.
ONE B-STADARD IS "PROTECTED" IF INSIDE TOP 3.
10K IS SET.
Yes, as I said, that's true according to IAAF eligibility regulations, but if you go and read the relevant part of the USATF guidelines concerning team selection that I posted you will see that this is not the case for earning an automatic place on the USA team for Worlds. National governing bodies are free to impose stricter criteria for their domestic team selection than the IAAF/IOC's minimum standards. Cf. Canada's 2:11:29 Olympic standard in the men's marathon vs. the IOC's 2:15 A-standard or Japan's sub-2:09:30 requirement for the World Championships marathon for just two examples.
M.C. Confusing wrote:
Its all the finish....the Finishlynx cameras take a tiny sliver of a picture, and places them all in a row...they take between 500 and 2000 pictures a second, based on which camera you have (I would suspect Oregon has the 1000 pictures a second version, since the 2000 pic version is for horseracing only) so this is ALL the finishline. those thin lines on the picture are where the operator placed their lead chest mark, each indicating a time farther down the picture....and I'm fairly sure its the lead point of your chest, not the midpoint. So the shoulder doesn't count, but the farthest point out on the chest leading into the shoulder. if you zoom in the picture, you can see that Wheating's line isnt on the edge of his shoulder, but on the edge of jersey on the shoulder, which indicates where the leading edge of his chest is.
This is the correct answer. Good work
Each thin line is the finish, and the photos of the runners hitting it are placed L to R according to when the runner hit it. This makes is helpful to read, but it is NOT simply a single photo taken of all athletes at once.
This is actually a very good summary ;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fully_automatic_timing (I'm not trying to be rude - it really is good.)
in all honesty wrote:
very positive wrote:SCOTTY BAUHS IS GUARNATEED TO RUN AT WORLDS.
ONE B-STADARD IS "PROTECTED" IF INSIDE TOP 3.
10K IS SET.
Yes, as I said, that's true according to IAAF eligibility regulations, but if you go and read the relevant part of the USATF guidelines concerning team selection that I posted you will see that this is not the case for earning an automatic place on the USA team for Worlds. National governing bodies are free to impose stricter criteria for their domestic team selection than the IAAF/IOC's minimum standards. Cf. Canada's 2:11:29 Olympic standard in the men's marathon vs. the IOC's 2:15 A-standard or Japan's sub-2:09:30 requirement for the World Championships marathon for just two examples.
You're assuming that we must parse the rules and have no other guidance here (such as how the USATF has done it before). The USATF has always sent the top 3 if they're eligible to go. Bauhs' reaction was that he made the team. Curtis' reaction was that he didn't make the team unless one of the top 3 declined the spot. I trust that both of them aren't wildly mistaken.
Thanks for doing this, Wejo!!!!
How do Bizzarri and Hastings both make the team if they both only have Bs?
asdfjk;;lk wrote:
How do Bizzarri and Hastings both make the team if they both only have Bs?
One of them has to get the A standard for Bizzarri to go. I would think that's it a pretty good bet that will happen.
in all honesty wrote:
This seems to say that if Scott hasn't scored the A-standard by Aug. 8 then it is up to USATF's discretion whether or not he goes on the team. Based on other recent threads I think we all know what that probably means.
I take back what I wrote. The rules are a bit unclear but read how you said they did. I'm reaching out to Jill Geer for clarification. I could see a train of thought that "A"s should go because they are more competitive on the World stage.
wejo wrote:
in all honesty wrote:This seems to say that if Scott hasn't scored the A-standard by Aug. 8 then it is up to USATF's discretion whether or not he goes on the team. Based on other recent threads I think we all know what that probably means.
I take back what I wrote. The rules are a bit unclear but read how you said they did. I'm reaching out to Jill Geer for clarification. I could see a train of thought that "A"s should go because they are more competitive on the World stage.
It seems it's always been USATF policy to honor the results of the national championship. So if someone has finished in the top 3 and has a qualifying standard, they get to go.
Did anyone else have the 5000 A standard in 2009 when Evan Jager competed with only the B standard?
This seems to be a bit more , arbitrary would not be the right word, but open to interpretation that I thought.
I always thought it was kind of top 3, A's were auto, and if you had the B you could go , or in this case 4th and the A?
Now it is all over the place as to explanation.
what they should do is out out a list and who is eligible and what they would have to have happen?