Peter Snell Interview and his thoughts on Lydiard training

Hodiho. Haters, come back when you've won three Olympic 800 meter golds and set WRs that persisted for decades...and while you're at it, you need to beat Snell's alltime 1:44.3WR for 800 on a grass track. Then, and only then, will anyone listen to you.

The idea that Snell, or other Lydiard disciples, or even Lydiard-doubters, can learn much from Johnny Gray (or those coached by Igloi or Timmons) is almost too pathetic. What can we do except laugh when we read these claims?

Johnny Gray was a world-class athlete whom I happen to respect because he laid it on the line, every time, he ran 1:42 several times during a long career at the highest level, and he raced four OG 800 finals and even won a bronze medal at the event.

But he's not even in the same stadium as Peter Snell.

Don't you haters realize that trying to diminish an athlete as great as Snell, or his monumental accomplishments, just makes you look like utter weenies?

Also, have you guys noticed that Peter Snell is becoming increasingly direct in his old age? He states that "American" "interval-based training" is "bullshit." At least, he said it twice in the interview.

That doesn't mean he lacks respect for his US rivals, except Beatty...

"I was impressed with Jim Ryun afterward as, even though I wasn’t as sharp as I could have been when he beat me in 1965, I felt he was going to have a fabulous career. I shook his hand just after the race as I was pretty happy for him, though I’m not sure if Jim got that message."

And, now we know why he won't be invited to present the 800m medals by the LOCOG...

"As far as the British middle distance runners in the early 1980s I was glad when Steve Cram knocked Sebastian Coe off as I preferred his personality."

And never mind the four lap events. The significance of the 800 vs the 15/mile...

"I believe winning back-to-back 800s was the tougher thing to do. Neither of the 800 races was a foregone conclusion whereas in the Tokyo 1,500 meters I was favored and it would have been more shocking if I didn’t win."

Gary: great job with the interview, this is most interesting. But, you missed a couple of subjects that are of interest to the LR readership.

There is no mention of the notorious 76 second 660yd time trial in Tokyo that caused "rumors to spread like wildfire" around the Olympic village and created a climate of abject fear among his opponents. As if they didn't already fear him.

Whether the 1:44.3 was the limit for him? I doubt it, considering his comments about the relative difficulty of the track in Tokyo and the fact his positioning was so bad, he resorted to unprecedented tactics to win the race. No other athlete has deliberately exited the box on the backstretch of the OG 800 final by dropping back, and then swinging wide and taking the entire field around the curve. And recorded what was then the second fastest time in the history of the event, second only to his own WR. The margin of superiority is just as conclusive as the 1500 although it didn't show on TV as well.

HRE wrote:The seven minute thing seems odd to me. But if someone with Snell's credentials says running slower will make you faster, and he very specifically dd say just that. IT IS NOT NONSENSE.

HRE, I think we discussed this a few years ago after your interview. I think if you interpret his words in the context of elite male runners, the 7 min cutoff may make some good sense. But if you try to apply it to the general case of all runners, it does become nonsense, no matter who said it. And the number should be adjusted accordingly for elite women I expect.

HRE wrote:

Snell has spent his life acquiring a tremendous amount of knowledge and experience as well as a Ph.D in exercise physiology. The seven minute thing seems odd to me. But if someone with Snell's credentials says running slower will make you faster, and he very specifically dd say just that. IT IS NOT NONSENSE.

What's nonsense is for someone with no credential in the matter to get onto a message board and claim to know better than a guy with a doctorate, a reserach job in the field and a bunch of Olympic gold medals and world records does.

It's nonsense. It's just plain wrong. I don't care how many qualifications he has, it just isn't true.

I have been following this very interesting thread. I am not really into the technical side of running, racing or training but I am understanding my experiences more than I did. I trained with Bruce Kidd, Coach Fred Foot, The East York Track Club and its most successful runner, Bill Crothers, don't forget Bill Crothers, for 5 years. One winter I decided to train outdoors by mostly running as I could in snow and ice storms instead of doing intervals on the 153 yard track at Hart House. Other than slipping on ice, I had less injuries. One February day I showed up at Hart House and Coach Foot had me run a mile and a half time trial on that 153 yard track even without having done speed work. I ran within 2 seconds of my personal best and never could understand why. The 17 to 18 mile slower runs outdoors seemed to agree with my mostly slow twitch legs.

Then in the mid 1960s I spent 20 months training under Coach Mihaly Igloi. I found it too hard for me. I needed more rest and less speed. About three years later my training slowly reverted to what I liked to do. I just ran as I felt, sometimes doing fartlek but no intervals at all. The only speed work was the 2 or three races I ran each month. For a six month period I had my best series of marathons and road races. I believe that Dr Peter Snell is correct.

Snell got his gold medals before becoming an exercise physiogist, and hasn't run anything near as well since.

Chuckster wrote:

Jim Ryan @17years old

Sun - 10M in 64mins

Mon - 2M + 1 + 800 + 400 + 200repeats

Tue - short speed work - 160, 200, 300m repeats

Wed - 50 x 400

Thu - 18 x 800

Fri - track fartlek

Sat - RACE

Wow that makes me laugh. As far as I know, Ryun never ran anything even close to that in a week. If so, maybe he did it once in his life. The 50x 440 were done in sets of 10, with rests between sets, and they were done ONE time during cross country season. Usually the 440's were on a 3 minute basis, by the big swimmer's clock that was always set up by the side of the track, about 10 yards past the finish so everyone could see it. When you finished a rep you moved out, so the runners coming in next were able to see their time on the clock.

Okay, then the 440's were reduced in track season and there were not as many of them. Towards the end of track there were only 8x 440, then only 4x 440 before the big meets, with the same (about) 2 minute rests.

Yes, the 50 mile was part of the national physical fitness program. Two of the guys on the East team did it together.

Again that is total nonsense. Timmons did coach swimming, and some of the runners ran cross country, swam in the winter, than ran track in the spring.

It was not only Ryun who prospered with the program.

Timmons' teams won MANY state championships, in cross country, swimming and track. He coached Archie San Romani Jr, who had the national record in the mile before Ryun, and then went to college in Oregon. He coached swimmers who won open national championships, and I think at least one who got an Olympic gold medal and broke several world records.

Now that I'm thinking about it, the Sunday runs might have been 16 miles, not 20. Timmons drove the team to Augusta, and they ran back to Wichita.

This is very interesting.

Swim training at the highest levels is comprised of eternal repeats. There is much lower proportion of what might be called "LSD." But the muscular intensity of those repeats is very different than track work. Swim cadence does not match track cadence at all - swimming demands much slower but more translationally extensive major muscle group movements.

The idea that Timmons' theories came from the pool, and migrated to track via Ryun, like Godzilla rising in the swamp of the swim coach's mind, deserves more study. Maybe for Ryun this melding of interval work into bulk work was his optimal training modality. But maybe that's also why Timmons acquired a reputation as a talent-buster - unlike Lydiard who consistently maximized the achievements of those with lesser talents, including himself.

savagesquid wrote:

Maybe for Ryun this melding of interval work into bulk work was his optimal training modality. But maybe that's also why Timmons acquired a reputation as a talent-buster - unlike Lydiard who consistently maximized the achievements of those with lesser talents, including himself.

Again, that was a myth, and not true.

Timmons was known for bringing the talent out of kids, who appeared to have none. That includes Ryun, who was slow and uncoordinated when he first went out for cross country.

Kids came from all over the state to run with Timmons in the summers in the Wichita Track Club, because of his reputation for excellence.

Pete,

We did and I agree with you. We even got Hadd to weigh in on this in another setting and he also agreed with us, i.e., the seven minute pace makes sense in that context of elite male runners but needs to slow way down for much of the general population. But Peter stuck to that seven minute figure for everyone. If he and I ever talk again I might ask him if he's had any further thoughts on the matter.

Northcoast,

Thanks for the information about Ryun's 50 mile run. After reading your comment it struck me as vaguely familiar. I must have read about it and forgotten.

J.R.,

While I think Lydiard was a better coach than Timmons I respect Timmons tremendously. I was in high school when Ryun was in his prime and it was so exciting to have a runner of his caliber on the scene. It bothers me a lot when people here talk about Timmons "destroying" Ryun. Without him we'd have had no Ryun and all the excitement he created.

J.O,

You're hopeless but I admire your self belief. Snell NEVER said you don't need to run fast in training. He said that slow running for long enough periods will allow you to race faster but not necessarily as fast as possible. Many of us have had that experience.

You mean, for example, the Timmons "self-confidence in the absence of reason" mythology presented in the Runners World article from 09?

"Where are we going?" Timmons wonders aloud. While not knowing might upset many old-timers, he is calm, seemingly resigned to the fact that at a lucid moment, he had agreed to this. It is this sort of self-confidence in the absence of reason that forged The Legend of Coach Bob Timmons in the first place.

According to The Legend, Timmons created a training regimen decades ago that defied the very threshold of human potential. His methodology was based on a simple hunch: If you regularly pushed young men to the brink of exhaustion, they might build up an immunity to it."

"...he rewrote the coach-athlete social contract, pushing his charges harder and longer than any other coach in history. Some runners broke down physically or psychologically and simply walked away from the sport. By the time he retired in 1988, KU's running program was a shadow of its former glory. That is enough to leave any man with questions.."

etc.

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/printer/1,7124,s6-243-297--13085-0,00.html

There's no question that Coach Timmons is a notorious brand. Even Steve Ovett's biography made that point.

I agree those who didn't train with Timmons don't know the whole story, but I don't see quite the same polarity with Lydiard's reputation.

Another thing is that Timmons was coaching 14 and 15 year old kids.

I absolutely feel that Timmons was the far better coach.

Oh yeah, and try to train in Kansas in the summer, with 108 degree sweltering heat, ice storms in the winter, and tornadoes in the spring. Half way through one of the invitational track meets, we were all directed to the auditorium for an hour while a tornado blew through, then we went out and finished the meet. The times for the 2nd half of the meet were noticeably slower due to the 6 inches of water on the track. I ran the 880 barefoot so my shoes wouldn't get weighed down with the water. This happened a couple times in the spring. Fun fun fun. The tornadoes were quite scary though.

savagesquid wrote:

"Where are we going?" Timmons wonders aloud. While not knowing might upset many old-timers, he is calm, seemingly resigned to the fact that at a lucid moment, he had agreed to this.

Sad huh.

Well I'm glad to be on the opposite side of such a class act as you.

HRE wrote:

It would be good if you had some specifics here. I'd never heard of Ryun's 50 mile run. Where did you learn of it? Are you sure you aren't confusing Ryun with Gerry Lindgren who did do those sorts of things?

I'd also like to see some actual quotes where Arthur "ran down" other athletes or coaches. I'm not saying they don't exist, I just never heard or saw those sorts of comments.

I confess i don´t imagine if Jim Ryan did or didn´t 50 miles as a young runner.

Let´s imagine that Jim Ryan didn´t 50 miles. Does it changes J.R. main post comment ? No it doesn´t.

Haile Gebrelassie did one marathon run when teenager. The best chinese female marathon on the last W. Champs did her marathon debut with 11 years old. Gippu from Romenia one good junior runner from the 70s did 200miles a week and a weekly marathon long run. What really matters ?

I could go further on Lydiard temper. I got some information that proves that Lydiard "ran down" other athletes and coaches. To use the same words, Lydiard "runs down" on Peter Snell either, his best talent, the success one he did run down. Be informed.

J.R. wrote:

I'm pretty sure Igloi's group had many more medals and WR's. However, as Antonio has said, perhaps that is not relevant.

You are right. Igloy took more world records and medals than Lydiard. Well, just count with those that both coach directly, not those that they influenced or their disciples what is very speculative. Facts are facts.

But i don´t need to go further, or distant. The portuguese Mario Moniz Pereira took more medals, and more world records than Lydiard. Well if you count the 800m and the 88yards, the 3 miles and the 5000m the 6 mile and the 10000m...

I don't think Ryun's 50 mile run has much bearing on anything. I was just curious about it. I have spoken with both Snell and Lydiard about the difficulties they had getting along at one point and no, neither was always complimentary towards the other. "Running down" others is part of our nature. Lydiard was certainly the victim of it many times and continues to be. As I said, he'd answer your questions with his honest opinions.

As far as I can tell, the only Olympic gold medallist Igloi coached was Schul. He coached two silver medallists in 1956, 10,000 and steeple. In 1960, Rózsavölgyi got bronze in the 1500. I believe Igloi had coached him but would not have done so in 1960 as he'd left Hungary by then.

It may be that this is an unfair comparison with Lydiard as it's impossible to say how the Soviet invasion that year affected the Hungarians but that's four medals to Igloi, one gold, to six medals for Lydiard, four gold, though only two of his athletes accounted for the four golds. Still, that's one more gold medal winning athlete than Igloi had. Igloi's guys did get more world records.

The answer may (may) lie with age grading. So maybe for a 65 year old runner a seven pace is now a 9 pace. Not sure of the exact age graded equivalent.

I used to routinely train at 6:30-7 minutes a mile day after day not including intervals, time trials and races. Last year I could barely break 6:20 for a single mile. When I go out for an hour run these days I might work the pace a bit. Like it or not, that effort is now around a 9 minute pace.

A tempo run is in the 7:15-7:20 range.

J.O. wrote:

It's nonsense. It's just plain wrong. I don't care how many qualifications he has, it just isn't true.

Well I still haven't seen any ting that makes you other than a bleater. No source, no apparent qualification. A Pee Wee Herman school of debate and discussion.

And I guess he also knows little about runnning.

But having read your posts, I am not sure you understand what Snell is actually discussing. Yo came back wiuth a quote - you can't run fast by running slow (paraphrase). You focused on the 7 minutes. That number means different things to defferent people.

I think Snell was talking about the pace to run to achieve a chemical response in the muscles that was conducive to improving performance. It really had nothing to do with time - that's why he said it was a wavy line not a box.

He also said rest was incredibly important.

I assume you thought he said "You run faster by laying down".

As I just said to Pete, I agree. But Peter seemed to disagree.

HRE wrote:

Essentially if you run at that pace or "a bit" faster for a long enough time you deplete the glycogen from your slow twitch fibers and your fast twitch ones are forced to go to work. So you develop speed, through the development of fast twitch fibers, by running long enough at moderate paces.

... I'm repeating what Peter told me.

He told me the same thing a long time ago and I assumed he was at the vanguard of research on this very topic, so I believed him. But it turns out that no research has shown any such thing, at least not with runners. The following things are currently accepted:

1) Long runs do not cause FT fibers to be recruited any more than a short run at the same pace will. You certainly can't improve sprint speed by running marathon pace or slower, no matter how long you do it. Nobody these days advocates doing exclusively LSD, anyway, and neither did Lydiard or Snell. Include a variety of speeds in the routine year-round, varying the emphasis as needed.

2) Long runs done at a sufficient pace do cause glycogen depletion in both ST and FT fibers, even if the FT fibers are not being recruited. This does reap benefits, as long as refueling and hydration are adequate and as long as the stress and frequency of these long runs are balanced with recovery. The figure of 7:00 per mile is probably what Snell found necessary to keep ahead of the glycogen sparing effect which comes with training, and to keep the pace from being so fast as to create excess stress through high impact forces, cortisol, etc. That pace represented a happy medium for him.

3) Significantly picking up the pace (or throwing in some short strides at a faster speed) near the end of long runs will recruit fibers that are farther along the spectrum toward the FT end, amplifying any stimulus/adaptation that will already be occurring in those fibers due to glycogen depletion.

Long runs can be beneficial if they're done at the right pace and in the right context with other running. They might not work for exactly the reasons Peter Snell hypothesized, but if he was wrong, he wasn't too far wrong. Properly done and properly balanced with other stuff, long runs can help runners improve at a wide range of race distances.

HRE wrote:

he was just answering questions with his honest opinion. He did not bother trying to figure out what answer a questioner wanted to hear and then try tailoring his answer in that direction.

HRE

I want to change my posts to comment Peter Snell interview, A good one in my opinion, but I will debate some points. But if you insist in the Lydiard character…

Lydiard answer questions with his honest opinion.

To be honest and sincere, and say what we think, can´t justify some attitudes. Do you doubt that Bin Laden was sincere and convict of what he did ? However he was wrong and one bad character out of every humanity. However he was sincere.

The main problem of Lydiard is that he frequently he distorts and falsify the other training methods, to prove that his own is the best one. If he did it involuntary by ignorance about what are the other training methods or if he did it voluntary, just to put him on the top by rushing the other methods I don´t know.

Back to Peter Snell interview. He says that some 50% what is written about Lydiard isn´t correct. I would say that most of what Lydiard says about the other training methods isn´t true. I refuse to judge Lydiard training by Lydiard character, but I judge Lydiard by frequent distort of other training methods.

What I hardly can stand is the recent Lydiard people that does access to more information that Lydiard did, however they continue to distort the other training methods, and often they did the same distort training versions of other training methods that Lydiard himself he did.