Which workout is more aerobic, and which is more anaerobic: 12x400 45 sec rest, or 12x400 3 min rest?

Muscle tone is musle tension. Too high or too low and the oxygen cost of running is too high because the force generated is not sustainable (too high a tone) or the force generated is too low (low muscle tone).

Gotta go wont post for several days.

J.O. wrote:

Muscle tone is musle tension. Too high or too low and the oxygen cost of running is too high because the force generated is not sustainable (too high a tone) or the force generated is too low (low muscle tone).

Sorry, but this makes no sense. Muscle tension, or stiffness, is dictated solely by the number of attached cross-bridges generating force. Higher stiffness = higher proportion of attached cross-bridges, particularly those in the strongly-bound state. These cross-bridges will increase energy cost as ATP is required to attach-detach these bridges.

However, low muscle "tension" is the opposite effect: a smaller proportion of attached cross bridges, less ATP turnover and thus a lower energy cost. Now, I can ALMOST see where you're going in that a smaller proportion of attached cross-bridges means a lower force production. BUT, then to sustain a given force, you will have to recruit a higher VOLUME of muscle. So the O2 cost of low "tension" isn't related to it's tension at all, simply the amount of attached bridges generating force and the total number of cross-bridges required to maintain a given force. All else being equal (force per cross-bridge, same proportion of strongly and weakly bound bridges, etc), this requires a higher volume of muscle to be active and hence, greater O2 cost.

jT

Name it what you like. It´s not me that did introduce the motor units to the debate. I talk about facts you see not dogmas. Rui workouts isn´t a dogma it´s a fact. The fact he can´t run at the pace you suggest as many other runners they don´t takes your 12X400m 3000m as dogma, right ?

Did you ever did a biopsis to Rui or knew of Rui biopsys ?

Be oxidative or don´t what you say about 12X400m 3000m pace 45swec rest and 12X400m 1500m pace 3min rest is simply poor conclusion.

You are right the way he needs to do. So i´m right that he can´t handle 3000m pace.

As you might understand to gradually speed up as long as the workout goes on it´s not Rui peculiar way. It´s right for every runner to able to run rich intervals.

Anyhow i want to be more specific with one more concrete examples.

Rui it´s a 1:44/3:30. As i said earlier he can´t stand 12x400m 3000m pace 45secs rest. However he can run your other example 12X400m 1500m pace with 3min rest but not just 12 but 20X400m might be 30X400m. On the opposite side it´s Antonio Pinto 3:37/13:02/27:08/59 HM/2:06:36.

Pinto could run 30X400m (i reapeat 30 times !) 45secs rest in about 59-60secs that is slightly faster than his 3000m pb, but he couldn´t run 12X400m at his 1500m pace despite the 3:00min rest.

However Rui and Pinto 3000m pb are very similar.

Now it´s up to you or Jup to teach us what´s the physiologic reason this is as it. Anyhow your interval training suggest it´s what isn´t factual not my comment.

I follow this thread with interest. But the attempt take conclusions from false facts it´s the reason of my early post. This your workout suggest remembers some past posts with suggest to run 5X1000m at 5k pace with 60secs rest, what is something that even Bekele can do it often.

ps - i don´t take nothing personal to you either because i have no idea who you are really.

A few questions:

1) I know jtupper is Jack Daniels. Is jtupper-ware Jack Daniels or someone else?

2) jtupper-ware, can you relate your 2 miles @4:30 pace more aerobic than 32 x 100@ 12s/100m (no rest interval specified) example to something Renato wrote on page 6 of a thread on 800 meter training (see below)?

How is the best way for improving your aerobic base is another type of problem.

We made some experiment with our best runners (Benvenuti 1:43.92, D'Urso 1:43.95, Longo 1:43.74). Nobody was really fast, as their value was about 46.7 (Benvenuti), 47.5 (D'Urso), and 48.0 (Longo).

D'Urso was able running 5k in 14:03 at 2000m of altitude (Sestriere), Benvenuti 8:20 3k, Longo 8:40 at his beginning.

Taking lactate, we could see that Longo, after 6k at 3:20, had a value of 9-10 mmol, so this work was not completely aerobic, and the pace was very far from the speed of the race (20.0 every 100m against 13.0 about, only 66,5 %), so there was no relation under the biomechanical point of view.

But, running 4 sets of 10x150m in 22.0 with 20/25 sec. of recovery, the final level was, after every set, no higher than 6 mmol (so this work was more aerobic than running 6k not very fast). But the most important difference was that, after 6k, cortisol was very high, after one set of 10x150 very low. Cortisol prevents the possibility of producing lactate, so is a limiting factor for lactic activities. I continue later.

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=257737&page=2#ixzz1KCyPl600

Sorry, Renato wrote this on page 3 of the thread.

jT, could you please elaborate on this?

"Remember, anything below the 100% VO2 has to be sustained by non-oxidative metabolism and you will always start the rep with a lower VO2 the longer rest you take. This energy will not be supplied aerobically, so the 45s rest workout will be more aerobic."

E_Minor wrote:

jT, could you please elaborate on this?

"Remember, anything below the 100% VO2 has to be sustained by non-oxidative metabolism and you will always start the rep with a lower VO2 the longer rest you take. This energy will not be supplied aerobically, so the 45s rest workout will be more aerobic."

When you begin a rep, your VO2 is basically near resting VO2. Similar to heart rate, your VO2 doesn't just go from rest to the VO2 required for that workload instantly, just as your HR doesn't go from 60 bpm to 160 bpm instantly either. Thus, the VO2 at the start of the exercise will not be instantly at the VO2 required (I called this the "100% VO2 requirement in an earlier post). For highly-trained individuals, it takes 90-120s for your VO2 to get to the VO2 required for that workload. Before the VO2 reaches that level, the energy has to be supplied by non-aerobic metabolism.

If that still doesn't make sense, think of it like this. The VO2 required to run 10.0 mph is 3 L/min for example. Let's assume it takes 2 mins to reach that 3 L/min. If I meaured VO2 every 30s, I may get measurements like this:

30s - 1 L/min

60s - 2 L/min

90s - 2.5 L/min

120s - 3 L/min

So, even though you're running at 10 mph with a VO2 requirement of 3 L/min, your VO2 is not there yet. At 30s, you will need to supply the equivalent of 2 L/min (3 L/min - 1 L/min) of energy non-aerobically. At 60s, you need 1 L/min of non-aerobic energy to be supplied.

Now, as soon as you stop the rep, your VO2 wil begin to decrease slowly as your body no longer needs to supply that 3 L/min of energy since it's no longer running at 10 mph. The longer you wait, the lower your VO2 will decrease. For example:

VO2 immediately upon finishing the rep = 3 L/min

30s post finish = 2.5 L/min

60s post = 2 L/min

90s post = 1.5 L/min

120 post = 1 L/min

So, if you start the next rep 45s after finishing the first, your VO2 is now at ~2.25 L/min. Given the same VO2 kinetics (the speed at which it takes your VO2 to reach the VO2 required), it may now take you less than 30s to go from 2.25 L/min to 3 L/min (the VO2 required to run 10 mph). The difference in VO2 (3-2.25 L/min) will haev to be supplied non-aerobically, so you need to supply 0.75 L/min non-aerobically.

If you take 2 mins recovery, your VO2 will be at (from the example above) 1 L/min. When you start the second rep, it will now take you maybe 90s to get to that 3 L/min (the VO2 required). Thus, you now have to supply 2 L/min non-aerobically.

Thus, the longer rest requires more energy to be supplied anaerobically and it's all a result of VO2 kinetics to start the rep and how quickly it decreases following the rep completion.

I hope that makes sense. I know it's much easier to explain graphically.

jT

it does make sense , thank you.

Jt and Antonio :

Which workout is more specific for a 15:35 5,000 meters runner?

Workout #1 - 12X400/60 seconds jog recovery running each repeat at 70-72 seconds

Workout #2 - 12X400/3:00 minutes jog recovery running each repeat at 66-67 seconds

Bump

Years of coaching wrote:

Jt and Antonio :

Which workout is more specific for a 15:35 5,000 meters runner?

Workout #1 - 12X400/60 seconds jog recovery running each repeat at 70-72 seconds

Workout #2 - 12X400/3:00 minutes jog recovery running each repeat at 66-67 seconds

Neither one or the other. Both your 12X400m are good workouts but might be seen as shape condition build-up and early on the season, combined with mileage aerobic runs.

If you want 5000m specific workouts either i suggest 3Xmile or 2X2000m+1000m both at your 15:35 race pace and with long stand and/or recovery, not timed, and not fixed kind of 5 to 10minutes. Eventually you might use longer the recovery between the last sets.

[

2) jtupper-ware, can you relate your 2 miles @4:30 pace more aerobic than 32 x 100@ 12s/100m (no rest interval specified) example to something Renato wrote on page 6 of a thread on 800 meter training (see below)?

How is the best way for improving your aerobic base is another type of problem.

We made some experiment with our best runners (Benvenuti 1:43.92, D'Urso 1:43.95, Longo 1:43.74). Nobody was really fast, as their value was about 46.7 (Benvenuti), 47.5 (D'Urso), and 48.0 (Longo).

D'Urso was able running 5k in 14:03 at 2000m of altitude (Sestriere), Benvenuti 8:20 3k, Longo 8:40 at his beginning.

Taking lactate, we could see that Longo, after 6k at 3:20, had a value of 9-10 mmol, so this work was not completely aerobic, and the pace was very far from the speed of the race (20.0 every 100m against 13.0 about, only 66,5 %), so there was no relation under the biomechanical point of view.

But, running 4 sets of 10x150m in 22.0 with 20/25 sec. of recovery, the final level was, after every set, no higher than 6 mmol (so this work was more aerobic than running 6k not very fast). But the most important difference was that, after 6k, cortisol was very high, after one set of 10x150 very low. Cortisol prevents the possibility of producing lactate, so is a limiting factor for lactic activities. I continue later.

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=257737&page=2#ixzz1KCyPl600

[/quote]

Just to try to clarify a couple things regarding Renato's post from the past. Cortisol is a stress hormone and tends to be more highly upregulated during long aerobic runs and less so during anaerobic activities. So, I would suggest that cortisol doesn't prevent the production of lactate, but simply that a negative correlation exists between the two. Correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation. This simply tells me that long aerobic runs are more "stressful" in terms of the release of cortisol (and many other stress hormones) compared to anaerobic runs. I believe it was Kindermann (1982?) who first demonstrated this.

As for the difference in blood lactate between the 2 different workouts he describes... There seems to be some confusion, or lack of seperation between energy derived anaerobically via glycolysis (which has lactate as its end product) and energy derived anaerobically via ATP-CP (with no lactate production).

The short length of the repetitions outlined by Renato appaers to be primarily of ATP-CP system energy, thus a very small proportion of the reps will be derived from glycolysis and therefore, very little rise in blood lactate concentration.

Also, I would argue that the 2nd workout (the short duration repetitions) were "more aerobic" than the 6km workout. Going back to the original question of this thread, I GUARANTEE this athlete consumed more oxygen in 6km then the short rep workout. Measuring blood lactate tells you NOTHING about the relative contribution of aerobic metabolism. It simply tells you the relative contribution of GLYCOLYTIC energy contribution. And since the majority of the energy from the shorter rep workout was being supplied by ATP-CP, it is of no surprise to me that blood lactate is lower than the 6km workout.

Further things to consider include: when was the blood lactate measurements made? If you measure blood lactate immediately post exercise, you are actually getting a lactate concentration about 2-5 minutes in the past. What I mean by that is that you're measuring lactate in the blood, yet lactate is produced in the muscle and requires time to diffuse out of the muscle into the blood where it can be measured. This generally takes 2-5 minutes for peak blood lactate to occur.

Thus, if I measure blood lactate immediately post, I'm actually getting a picture of what was happening at the muscle 2-5 minutes prior to that measurement. In a 6km, 2-5 minutes would be somewhere between 4-5 km, where blood lactate is expected to be relatively high since the pace is presumably above the lactate threshold. 9-10 mM does not surprise me one bit.

As for the short reps, if I again take blood lactate immediatley post exercise, I would be getting a picture of the energy used at the muscle a little over half way through the final set. Again, the fact that blood lactate is "relatively low" doesn't surprise me at all either. I'm sure if I took serial blood samples 1, 2, 3, 5 min post, the blood lactate would rise above the 6 mM reported by Renato, as this would now better reflect the blood lactate contribution to the entire last set.

As a simplistic example, I have measured blood lactate concentration immediately following a 30s all-out cycle ergometry test (the "Wingate test" for those more familiar with physiological testing). What was the blood lactate concentration immediately post? 3.8 mM. Again, this is solely reflecting the intensity of the warm-up and perhaps the epinephrine response leading into high-intensity exercise. Measuring blood lactate at 1-2-3-5-7-10 minutes post Wingate, the blood lactate rose to 14.4 mM at 5 minutes post Wingate test, reflecting the diffusion time from muscle to blood.

So, in conclusion, there are a few things to consider:

1. A higher blood lactate concentration doesn't tell you anything about the aerobic contribution of the exercise

2. the TIME of blood lactate measurement is critically important to know

3. Short duration reps are still anaerobic, but a short enough duration (<15s) will likely produce very little, if any, change in blood lactate.

I hope that helps. Glad I can contribute and "talk shop" with many of you.

jT

Even with 30 second rests, are you sure that most of the energy is from ATP-CP and not something else?

Here is a study with 15 second intervals that got people to VO2 max:

http://www.lephe.org/attachments/044_37.2001-Billat-very%20short%2015-15-IJSM.pdf

Are you Jack Daniels or someone else? (I know jtupper is Jack Daniels but I am asking about jtupper-ware.)

Antonio, thank you for your ST FT contrast between Pinto and Silva.

Highlights there training strengths and weaknesses quite well.

Silva can handle alot of intervals at 1500m pace with long recovery and Pinto can handle alot of intervals at 3000m pace with short recovery.

Did Pinto train similar to Lopes?

SFM, without reading that link, the diff might be that Billat's study involved the runners jumping on/off a moving treadmill so they did not have to ramp up to whatever pace/percent of oxygen uptake she had them running. Such studies were also done more years ago than I care to remember...

Got the book out. To quote Astrand (T of Work Phys, 2nd ed, p 401)

"A series of studies [Christensen et al, 1960] have shown that maximal oxygen uptake (and cardiac output) may be attained in connection with repeated bouts of work at very high intensity of as short duration as 10 to 5s, provided the rest periods between each burst of activity are very short (of equal or shorter duration than the work periods)."

As noted above, the Christensen study involved the individual rested by standing beside the moving treadmill and jumping on/off. I do not believe Renato's example suggested such a protocol. In having the runner ramp up to speed from a standing start on every rep it may prove impossible/more difficult to have him/her achieve VO2max.

Good to see the beginnings of what could be an interesting thread once more on LR. Thoughts those days were gone.

Look to Benvenuti, D'Urso and Longo. They are 800m specialists. Despite that it´s said that “Nobody was really fast” – and what is said is relate with their 400m speed characterized by be elite short-to-middle distance runners AND NOT elite long distance specialists, therefore nobody was really fast as 800m specialist”.

Studies shows that in elite MIDDLE DISTANCE RUNNERS (800m-1500m/mile) the value of VO2max range from about 68 ml/kg/min to about 77 ml/kg/min when in elite DISTANCE RUNNERS (5000m-10000m-cross-road-HM and marathon) the average values are higher, let´s say from 75 to about 85 ml/kg/min.

The ability to use a large amount of O2 is a common characteristic among distance runners and not so common in short-middle distance runners as Benvenuti, D'Urso and Longo they are.

Mr. Peter Snell said that consider the 800m event the faster speed the runner possesses in short distance, the less VO2max he requires to run the same performance. Peter Snell says that an athlete with 22.5 200m pb needs a VO2max of 75 ml/kg/min to run 1:45 800m. However one runner with faster basic speed or greater anaerobic capacity is able to run the same 1:45 800m run with a VO2max of 60/ml/kg/min.

Another characteristic of the 800m runners as Benvenuti, D'Urso and Longo they are, is that they are runners that do the ability to produce high-lactate in one short period of run and in the fast pace kind as the 800-1500m middle distance runs do require and 5000m-10000m and longer runs don´t. It´s not unusual that an elite 800m runner finishes the 800m run with 17-21-23-25 a few times value observed of 27 mmol lactate after a 800m run. However in a 10000m run by the way the lactate isn´t so high, some 11-13-15mmol after the run. If you take a long distance runner tailed and made him run an 800m run he will try his best performance of the day but he will finish with less lactate than the 800m specialist.

The 800m specialist is able to run 800m with high lactate but they lack good aerobic power that undeniable is a major contribute to fast 800m performance.

Matt Spencer and Paul Gastin in “Energy system contribution during 200m to 1500-m running in highly trained athletes” revisited the energy supply and the relative contribution from the aerobic and anaerobic energy systems, and concludes that runs in the range of 800m and 1500m are higly dependent on an integrative contribution from both the aerobic and the anaerobic energy systems, but the relative aerobic contribution is the major contribution of 800m and 1500m events.

Conclusion of Matt Spencer and Paul Gastin study.

800m= 69% aerobic contribution

1500m= 83% aerobic contribution.

This re-evaluation of energy event links to implementation of one adequate training plan and specific workout implementation.

Specific training becomes an important factor of the training plan, and from the Matt Spencer and Paul Gastin data specific AEROBIC POWER WORKOUTS might contribute for performance enhance.

Take a look for short interval training focus on aerobic power and out of the biomechanics, running economy, or anaerobic threshold variables of consideration. The short interval kind, done by short distance set bouts with very short recovery length, able to train faster and closer to the race pace, and permits efficient O2 uptake that the longer intreval set bouts don´t, and however with less lactate concentration than continuous fast run kind don´t or fast pace long intervals set bouts od several minutes duration don´t.

Renato experiment is about to test what´s the best way to improve the aerobic power with different workout design. Since with short interval training with very short interval recovery at the same pace than longer bouts with long recovery showed to be carried with less lactate he concludes that the 4X10X150m=6k total 25sec rec. and few minutes recovery among the 4 groups total, is more effective to improve the aerobic power of that kind of 800m runners than long intervals like single run of 6k total or 3X2000m by the way.

But the important one Renato training conclusion is that with the implement of aerobic power workouts done by short interval training with short recovery to the runners did 800m PB while they didn´t with long fast runs.

What´s the main reason that short interval training formula permits fast pace and high aerobic ? It´s because short duration interval bouts able to fast pace per mile (or kilo) while the lactate is lower.

Some connection might exist among the aerobic contribution and the lactate. If don´t, how to justify that in the distance run events with high aerobic percent like the 5k 10k HM and marathon the runner finishes with lower lactate than short distance and high anaerobic contribution events like the 800m-1500m/mile, 3000m events are ?

Thanks, Antonio.

A little off topic: could you comment on Rui Silva's abdominal injury before the Athens Olympics? You wrote in the past that it limited his training just before the games and that it required surgery after.

How bad was the injury? What workouts did he do? What workouts were impossible due to the injury? Thanks!

I guess the only specific workout Rui did on that last 3 weeks before Athens was 5X500m 1:12-1:13 average pace with 2-4-6-8min stand recovery.

It´s considered the last key one workout for the Athens Olympics. You might understand this.

Middle distance runners, those of 800m and 1500m/mile specialists, they possess different phychological abilities. On this aspect, the same middle distance performance from 2 runners might mean a variety of aerobic and anaerobic capabilities. Therefore the importance of the two energy systems - the aerobic and anaerobic - changes according that different capabilities. One succesful middle distance runner runner might support his middle distance run while obtaining much of the necessary energy from the aerobic system while another might sustain major contributions from the anaerobic system.

It´s why specific workouts might be different from one middle diatnce runner to another. Rui Silva is a special case. He doesn´t possess high VO2max, but he is able to run at intensities up to 140% VO2max and he does very good explosive-ATP for the middle diatance runner he is. Most of that talent is natural. What he needs to get in shape is to run good aerobic workouts as build up, and some specific workouts in the late phase but not very fast, just like that 5X500m.

Some runners require more aerobic mileage, some require more hard training, each one of us it´s a different body "machine".