Coe's 3:29.77 on Youtube, finally!

Anyone know what Sydney Maree's time was in this race. I know he broke 3:30 during his career but this certainly wasn't the race.

ventolin^3 wrote:

[quote]hey fella wrote:

you are a moron with no understanding of "intrinsic" worth

do you think for instance the aouita who chased cram with a 52.7 finish was worth only 3'29.71 that day ??

drivel

that was another classic race in cologne the year before ( i taped it at the time but it's buried somewhere in a trunk in my shed & haven't seen it in 20y )

he ran 3'29.77 just 2 days after something like a 3'32 chasing forlonly after aouita in his 3'29.4wr

how he had the energy to run any sort of decent race so quickly after is a total mystery

he had abdi bile pacing him in a magnificent effort & maree looked like he was going to run 3'28 on the last lap but obviously the fatigue of that 3'32 still in his legs caught up with him & he "faded" to a 3'29.77

fully rested i have no doubt he wouda put 3'28 on the board that day - he was bringing 13-flat endurance to the event ( he couda broken the 5k record that year as well as long it was a race set up for him with no aouita in it - aouita woud outkick all comers in races above 1500 )

Raggamuffin wrote:

Anyone know what Sydney Maree's time was in this race. I know he broke 3:30 during his career but this certainly wasn't the race.

Maree's time behind Coe in Rieti 86 was 3:33.44.

The only stats I can find (courtesy of AW) on Maree's 3:29.77 from Koln 85 are that he went through 800m in 1:51.0 ("4m behind pacemaker"), then he was towed by Bile through 1100m in c. 2:33.7 (Bile-2:33.30) & 1200m in c.2:47.8 (Bile- 2:47.43).

So his last 700m went "roughly" 56.8, 41.9 (56.0)

Haven't seen the race but would love to if anyone knows a link!?

ventolin^3 wrote:

that was another classic race in cologne the year before ( i taped it at the time but it's buried somewhere in a trunk in my shed & haven't seen it in 20y )

Darling, isn't it about time for some spring cleaning?

Aha! Yes, inevitably, another perfect forum for the advancement of Deano-Ventolin True Times (tm).

OK, a great race by Coe. He tried to execise good judgment in the chopping of leadership and pace changes. You can't tell me that he didn't see the 2:34 at the bell and as a consequence, he immediately went after the WR in a big way.

Also, I don't think by any means this was as diabolically paced and distributed as some have suggested. The DVTT for this race can't be much inside 3:29 if at all.

It's nothing like as ridiculous as his 3:31.95 from Stockholm in 1981. Now THAT run should have been the first sub-3:30 and it deserves a DVTT of 3:28 at least.

savagesquid wrote:

Aha! Yes, inevitably, another perfect forum for the advancement of Deano-Ventolin True Times (tm).

OK, a great race by Coe. He tried to execise good judgment in the chopping of leadership and pace changes. You can't tell me that he didn't see the 2:34 at the bell and as a consequence, he immediately went after the WR in a big way.

Also, I don't think by any means this was as diabolically paced and distributed as some have suggested. The DVTT for this race can't be much inside 3:29 if at all.

It's nothing like as ridiculous as his 3:31.95 from Stockholm in 1981. Now THAT run should have been the first sub-3:30 and it deserves a DVTT of 3:28 at least.

LOL!

I agree with much of what you say. I was just relaying what Coe said himself in his biography. To paraphrase, he said he was about to go all out for a final last 400m, when Chesire, who he'd already passed on the previous bend, went whizzing past, then... "After a dozen strides he suddenly slowed, and I went into the back of him. I must have lost half a second with that..." So I think Coe considers he'd have run 3:29.2 without having to slow down and then surge wide to get round a tiring Chesire, who then dropped out at 1200m.

If you compare the first 2 laps with those of Cram & Aouita in their sub 3:30's, Coe's opening 2 had a greater disparity: -

Cram~ 3:29.67 ~ 55.5, 58.3

Aouita~ 3:29.71~ 55.9, 58.5

Aouita~ 3:29.46~ 57.2, 56.4

Coe ~ 3:29.77 ~ 54.0, 58.0

I agree on the Stockholm run.

so sydney went

1'51.0/42.7/14.1/41.9

so, 56.0 on last lap which is 3'30-flat pace & he actually ran 3'29.77

the combo of slightly too fast initial 800 & fatigue from berlin run cost him, as you coud normally expect a 55-flat on a last lap from a wr holder ( he held it in '83 ) - you coud just see the hint of treading water in homestretch

of note, his bell time was significantly faster than coe's & little more than a second slower than what hicham went thru in his 3'26wr !!!

i'll have to check, but i doubt morceli went thru anything significantly quicker at the bell in either of 3'28.8 or 3'27.3 wrs - i remember screaming at the tv imploring sydney to hold on that last lap - it really looked like a 3'28 at the bell

curse his racing schedule that year - his stock had dropped from '83 highs & he was always the nearly man that year :

- chasing aouita in berlin

- getting outkicked by moorcroft to 7'32.7 - 2nd fastest ever by dave

- dragging aouita to 13-flat

i really do believe if he had had races set up for him alone with plenty of rest & no pesky other guys to outkick him off his hard work him that in '85 he couda gone :

- mid/high 3'28

- 7'25/7'26

- 12'55

problem was he was no longer "the big star" ( as he was briefly in '83 ) & races, apart from low-key cologne weren't set up for him - he was used as the sterling opposition to the new "big stars" of aouita/moorcroft

Some interesting points there.

Why do you think he was so (relative to the likes of Coe, Aouita, Cram, Ovett, etc) inconsistent? And I don't just mean "not winning" due to not having much of a "kick"?

He could be 8th one week in a 3:58 Mile, then almost break a WR the next!?

I remember he was well beaten by Ovett (as well as Boit, Walker and Beyer) in the 81 World Cup 1500 by almost 2 seconds. BUT a week later he kicked past Ovett to win the Mile in Rieti in 3:48! This seemed to be a pattern through much of his career.

some of the guys here obviously know his history better, but i believe his poor showing in '84 trials obviously affected him

if he had brought that '85 form ( or even the '83 form ) to '84, he couda really strung out that field in the 1500 & certainly got at least bronze ( & possibly silver as cram wasn't at his best )

i'm sure guys here know about his '84 season, which he couda expected to improve upon his 3'31 season of '83, but unfortunately it didn't happen 'til '85 - perhaps they'll contribute

Drugs.

Cyclopentanoperhydrophenanthrene nucleus.

ventolin^3 wrote:

kid

i saw that run live on satellite 24y ago

Did you really darling? Wow, that is really something. Are you sure you're not making this up to impress everybody? That is really something...you really saw it live? OMG...

what a beautiful stride

Vento, WEAK SAUCE.

First off, Coe was not impeded any during that race.

2nd there was no wind that day...perfect for running.

3rd Rieti is a notoriously "suspect" track...similar to Stanford in that respect.

4th Coe failed to use correct starting technique for distance runners, thereby losing .5 second just on the start alone.

Following your "twisted" logic, why have a race at all...just do WR attempts on a treadmill, where all the negatives like wind, and pacing, etc are eliminated.

Nobody promised Coe perfect conditions....although Rieti was as close to perfect as you can get...PACING included.

jennifer cruz wrote:Did you really darling? Wow, that is really something. Are you sure you're not making this up to impress everybody? That is really something...you really saw it live? OMG...

eh ?

it's a statement of fact - nothing else - if you didn't see it back then - tough shit

that rieti meet is notable for me in that the main race of the day ( & what i tuned in for ) was cram over the 800

the feeling was that he really wanted to bust his pb & i certainly was looking forward to something like a low/mid-1'42 from him that day, but unfortunately he "only" got a 1'43.19

i was aware of coe's race but thought he was pretty much past it & wasn't expecting much at all from him & thus had only moderate interest, so that 3'29 was a huge surprise when a time around 3'32 was what i was expecting beforehand - showed there was still life in the ole dog

you clearly don't have a clue about "controlled" situations

controlled situations to get best possible time require :

- no wind/temperate weather

- as even pace as possible

- following pacer no more than 2m behind to the bell

we can make an effort to quantitfy the last 2 ( & even the 1st for wind is possible if we had wind gauges around the track )

if a guy runs high-3'29 but you tell him if he'd had absolute even-pace & the pacer did his job properly & the elite managed to tuck in perfectly ~ 2m behind to get the drafting, that he was worth 3'28-flat, do you think he woudn't be interested to know ?!

let me tell you a story - on discovery channel a decade+ ago there was a programme with fiona may the leading lj'er of the day ( former world champ & desperately unlucky not to have the big gold in her career - twice silver ) & physicists were doing measurements of her speed & angle at take-off

they told her that her raw data implied that if she had the perfect jumping technique with her speed/angle, she was capable of jumping ~ 7.40m ( her pb was 7.11m )

her eyes lit up like saucers when they told her that - the shock & pleasure on her face was a sight to behold

she was too ole by then to improve her technique but the news of what she was capable of was obviously of immense value to her

ventolin^3 wrote:

let me tell you a story - on discovery channel a decade+ ago there was a programme with fiona may the leading lj'er of the day ( former world champ & desperately unlucky not to have the big gold in her career - twice silver ) & physicists were doing measurements of her speed & angle at take-off

they told her that her raw data implied that if she had the perfect jumping technique with her speed/angle, she was capable of jumping ~ 7.40m ( her pb was 7.11m )

her eyes lit up like saucers when they told her that - the shock & pleasure on her face was a sight to behold

she was too ole by then to improve her technique but the news of what she was capable of was obviously of immense value to her

Darling, I saw that program live on satellite! My eyes lit up like saucers while I watched it. Imagine how my eyes lit up like saucers to now realize that you too were watching it. I am sure in the world of perfection everybody is capable of faster and farther performances. My eyes light up like saucers every time you claim an athlete is or was capable of whatever performance. Ventolin, what would the world records be if you were creating the list based on your ideas of what the athletes were capable of? I'm sure my eyes would light up like saucers in viewing the list.

you are bullshitting

if you had seen the programme, you woud have known they actually told her she could jump 7.50m

your failure to pick this up shows you are talking horseshit

Amazing. It's not that those pacers were particularly awful--Just that Seb Coe was too fantastic for them!