John Bingham's Newtonian moment: "Ah-ha! I will become rich selling underachievement!

I have absolutely nothing against people "Gallow walking," hobby jogging, being at the back of the pack, being penguins or whatever you want to call it. For anyone, running slowly or walking is still better than no activity, and for most people even a slow marathon is a real achievement. Most people don't have the time, talent, or interest to be competitive with the fastest runners their age, but can still benefit greatly from running, so good for them. The world is big enough for Tiger Woods and recreational golfers, and running is the same way.

So I have no problem with the philosophy. What I have a problem with is some of Bingham's snotty and dismissive comments toward competitive running. When he starts creating strawmen that he knows are not true, I think it's very cynical on his part. I wouldn't denigrate Tiger Woods' golf skills to make me feel better about my lousy golf game, and I don't think Bingham should do the same thing with competitive running.

Strong disagree that for most people, just finishing a marathon is a real achievement. I suppose for *some* people it is a real achievement. For most, it is just the unimpressive result of not trying particularly hard, possibly motivated by a guaranteed social reward.And I have no problem with that. Why should everyone have to take running seriously? My problem is with the commonly held notion that these folks deserve not just equal respect, but more respect, than people who trained hard and did well, or even average.We don't treat other things like this. We don't cheer loudest for the worst math student or the most inept surgeon. Why should running be treated so differently? When did this happen?

big deal. wrote:Strong disagree that for most people, just finishing a marathon is a real achievement. I suppose for *some* people it is a real achievement. For most, it is just the unimpressive result of not trying particularly hard, possibly motivated by a guaranteed social reward.

I think you are underestimating how woefully out of shape most Americans are, but either way, the solution is not to denigrate people who are getting off their butts and doing something. The solution is to educate people about just how hard it is to be a competitive runner. Asics has done some creative stuff with the virtual Ryan Hall at Columbus Circle and the Ryan Hall speed treadmill.

It's all a matter of education. If you know nothing about golf, you don't have any idea how long a good drive is. Learn about a sport and you begin to appreciate what it takes to be good.

Fair is fair wrote:So I have no problem with the philosophy. What I have a problem with is some of Bingham's snotty and dismissive comments toward competitive running. When he starts creating strawmen that he knows are not true, I think it's very cynical on his part. I wouldn't denigrate Tiger Woods' golf skills to make me feel better about my lousy golf game, and I don't think Bingham should do the same thing with competitive running.

So you complain about John's comments about a straw man by creating a straw man? Really? The only thing he complains about is people that call everyone that's not in first a loser. That "if you didn't puke you didn't try hard enough" or "if you not going to try to win don't bother" attitude that basically tells anyone running just to get in shape they should run in a darkened basement away from the public eye as not to shatter the painfully fragile egos of "real" runners. My God! Someone saying finishing a marathon is an accomplishment! The horror! Some poor pencil necked geek won't have anything to impress the girl he's paying to talk to over the internet with!

I've known John since before he committed the ultimate LetsRun sin of writing a column for Runner's World (for non-elites too! Blasphemy!). He's not saying snotty or dismissive things about competitive running, he's just saying the entire running world doesn't revolve around a few elites. As an accomplished musician he had a good analogy; "just because someone doesn't want to train to get to the Philharmonic does mean they should stop playing in community band".

big deal. wrote:

My problem is with the commonly held notion that these folks deserve not just equal respect, but more respect, than people who trained hard and did well, or even average.

We don't treat other things like this. We don't cheer loudest for the worst math student or the most inept surgeon. Why should running be treated so differently? When did this happen?

I don't think what you believe to be common actually is. Of course the Olympic champ is the hero. Thing is, I have never run in to one. I don't have 3 or 4 that work in my office. If I did then I would give him proper praise (or respect). So I congratulate the 50 yr old woman in my department that ran her first half marathon in 2:30. I respect the accomplishment and dedication of the guy in the office that runs his 19:00 5K and understand that he puts more into his running than the woman I mentioned. We do encourage the bad math student that tries and gets better. Your surgeon analogy is poor, that is a profession. I would congratulate somebody that passed some sort of respectable first aid class. Running is different because (unless it is your job) it is a hobby.

Even if you're right, I still think a person of moderate fitness covering 26.2 miles under 6 hours is not a real achievement. If that person made choices such that they dipped far below moderate fitness, and then later climbed their way back up, then that is nice for them but doesn't make that slow marathon finish any more 'real'. It's certainly not more impressive than staying in shape in the first place.I'm not sure about the 'denigrate people who are getting off their butts and doing something' you refer to. Do you mean Penguin belittling elites? I agree that's not so classy. And I agree that being a competitive runner must be an insanely hard thing to do. Once I realized how close an elite marathoner's 26.2 pace, was to their mile PR pace, and how hard they much be pushing for the full 26.2 ... I can't imagine doing that. Just brutal.

Edward Teach wrote:

Finally! We've all been waiting for some kind of analysis for 22 months! So glad you worked meticulously for almost 2 years to provide this commentary beantaxi.

Here's another one of these arrogant elite LRC posters, putting down an average Joe. You probably provide subtle analysis of distance running training and performance, relationships, and current events, start 10-page troll threads and what not, and think that makes you better than people who reply to two-year-old posts to add nothing of real substance, who make lame and obvious troll attempts, or who just read the boards without posting. We don't need you, mister!

Funny that since the Penguin came along American distance running has actually improved.

No one is talking about snubbing their perfectly nice coworker (talk about poor analogies) or otherwise being rude. And I do commonly hear sentiments such as "the people I have the most respect for are the ones out there for 5 1/2 to 6 hours." Perhaps your experience is different (eg you have never heard of Runner's [sic] World).In any case, I am a midpacker, but I when I finish an event, cool down, chat with friends, have that postrun beer or 3, and head home a bit later, I still see people out on the course finishing up. I think I'm supposed to well up with misty pride and respect for the heroes at the back of the pack. But I don't. I suppose I wish them well, but mostly I wonder what in the world they're doing. The same as I might, if they were all sitting motionless staring at a blank wall.Is it good those people are doing something? I guess. But what personal trainer would ever prescribe waking up at 5am and going for a 6 hour shuffle? They'd be much better walking for an hour, maybe 20-30 of weights or a yoga class, and spending the balance of the time on sleep.But they're out there, because we have collectively decided really slow marathons are a real accomplishment, and so "26.2" is now on a lot of bucket lists, and oval sticker printers are doing great. I am just not sure this is terribly healthy or creates lifelong runners. I know plenty of people who endured the misery of marathon training, including multiple 5-6 hour long 'runs', and concluded "running sucks" and have never been back. If they'd never heard of slow marathoning & just focused on breaking a 1:00 10K, they'd probably still be running (and 50 lbs lighter).tl;dr Mr. Penguin has popularized/mythologized slow marathoning and profited from it, and good for him, but I am not sure it is noble, or healthy, or effective at creating lifelong runners.

genuine random a hole wrote:

I don't think what you believe to be common actually is. Of course the Olympic champ is the hero. Thing is, I have never run in to one. I don't have 3 or 4 that work in my office. If I did then I would give him proper praise (or respect). So I congratulate the 50 yr old woman in my department that ran her first half marathon in 2:30. I respect the accomplishment and dedication of the guy in the office that runs his 19:00 5K and understand that he puts more into his running than the woman I mentioned. We do encourage the bad math student that tries and gets better. Your surgeon analogy is poor, that is a profession. I would congratulate somebody that passed some sort of respectable first aid class. Running is different because (unless it is your job) it is a hobby.

luv2run wrote:

Funny that since the Penguin came along American distance running has actually improved.

That is because to run better times the first thing to do is SLOW DOWN! Chris McCormac tells a story of a friend of his that could not break ten hours at Ironman no matter what he did. Macca told him to slow down and walk SIX TIMES (he was walking twice) on the run. What happened? His time IMPROVED by 23 minutes. It is really the same with everything. To go faster start by SLOWING DOWN!

Super Jay Five wrote:

That is because to run better times the first thing to do is SLOW DOWN! Chris McCormac tells a story of a friend of his that could not break ten hours at Ironman no matter what he did. Macca told him to slow down and walk SIX TIMES (he was walking twice) on the run. What happened? His time IMPROVED by 23 minutes. It is really the same with everything. To go faster start by SLOWING DOWN!

^ Not this.

Is this a bump from 1999?

Why now?

big deal. wrote:

They'd be much better walking for an hour, maybe 20-30 of weights or a yoga class, and spending the balance of the time on sleep.

This actually is true for just about everyone running marathons on the reg.

big deal. wrote:

Super Jay Five wrote:

That is because to run better times the first thing to do is SLOW DOWN! Chris McCormac tells a story of a friend of his that could not break ten hours at Ironman no matter what he did. Macca told him to slow down and walk SIX TIMES (he was walking twice) on the run. What happened? His time IMPROVED by 23 minutes. It is really the same with everything. To go faster start by SLOWING DOWN!

^ Not this.

Are you saying I am wrong because it sounds wrong or have you actually tried it? I have actually done it and other people who have done it say the same thing. A guy on Slowtwitch raced (in the swim) at 100% effort then he raced at a slow easy pace and he WENT FASTER at the easy pace! When I play basketball I slow down now play at 80% effort and I play much better than when I used too go at 100% effort. I think it works for a few reasons. #1 When people slow down they are more RELAXED. The more relaxed people are the better they perform. #2 People PLAN and THINK better when they are relaxed and so go faster. #3 When people slow down they conserve energy so when it is time to speed up they have energy.

To sum up, when people SLOW DOWN they relax, plan and save energy so in the long haul they perform better.

LOL - you think you deserve respect for running a race??!?!?!

I wouldn't respect you anymore or less as a person if you ran sub 2:05 or over 3hr. Running isn't a competition for merit or respect - its something we do for fun. don't let it define you and you may end up all right.

Cheers

9/10

No I do not. I don't believe I said otherwise. Frankly, I think the status to which we have elevated marathons is pretty weird. But I benefit from it so I try not to complain too much.And I'd certainly have some respect someone for running a 2:05 or sub 3:00 for being excellent (or merely darn good) at running. Assuming they weren't a horrible person.

. . . wrote:

LOL - you think you deserve respect for running a race??!?!?!

I wouldn't respect you anymore or less as a person if you ran sub 2:05 or over 3hr. Running isn't a competition for merit or respect - its something we do for fun. don't let it define you and you may end up all right.

Cheers

I wasn't saying you were wrong, which you are, so much as I was saying "don't write things like this". You are making absurdly broad statements ("it is like this for everthing!"), backed by vague, irrelevant anecdotes (Hint: running is not basketball. Further hint: fine motor control) It sounds like spam, except you don't appear to be selling anything, which just makes it more strange.If you want to calm down and attempt a well-reasoned, meaningful point, then go ahead. I can't imagine what it would be ... I doubt runners here are endlessly blasting their way into aborted track sessions and dumbfounded as to why they're not improving. But I would love to be surprised.

I wasn't saying you were wrong, which you are, so much as I was saying "don't write things like this". You are making absurdly broad statements ("it is like this for everthing!"), backed by vague, irrelevant anecdotes (Hint: running is not basketball. Further hint: fine motor control) It sounds like spam, except you don't appear to be selling anything, which just makes it more strange.If you want to calm down and attempt a well-reasoned, meaningful point, then go ahead. I can't imagine what it would be ... I doubt runners here are endlessly blasting their way into aborted track sessions and dumbfounded as to why they're not improving. But I would love to be surprised.