Is it expected to feel flat during races/workouts while running higher mileage?

You don't sleep enough. Eat more or/and better too. You are burning the candle at both ends. You 37 and not sleeping enough to recover. Half marathon in a month? Insert a off day every week for RNR. That should do the trick. If you are not pro and not shooting for sub2:10 marathon, sub 15 5 k, etc taking time off will benefit you. Taper before the half. Reduce your training load before race.

The above is for temp runner. If you're hard core. Sleep more. Eat better. You'll make it.

First of all, without giving a sample week both now and from the past, there's nothing I can tell you except to speculate. What I would like is a sample week, and also a summation of weekly totals for 2 months of running.

To broadly answer your question, when bumping mileage, initially you should feel some fatigue, but that will pass in about three weeks. Secondly, from what I've been reading here is that MOST of you get hung up on your mileage, whether it be 60, 100, or 160, it seems that many here simply cannot, or won't, listen to their bodies, and back off when needed. When I here someone say they are running 90mpw, they report 90,90,90,90,90,90,90,etc. If I don't see variance, I infer obsession.

This is not correct. When bumping mileage his easy running pace should be getting faster, not slower. The whole idea of bumping mileage is to improve general aerobic fitness. Aerobic easy runs are the same pace at 60mpw as it is at 90 or 190, the only difference at the higher levels is improved fitness.

malmo wrote:

What I would like is a sample week, and also a summation of weekly totals for 2 months of running.

This is what I've done the past two months starting from most recent week.

85, 84, 59, 94, 97, 91, 52, 80.

A sample week I did a couple of weeks ago went like this:

Mon - Recovery 1 hr

Tues - AM, 4 easy - PM, 11 tempo intervals

Wed - PM, 13 easy

Thus - AM, 5 easy - PM, 11 easy

Fri - AM, 4 easy - PM, 4 easy

Sat - AM, 10 - ladder intervals (2 X 6,5,4,3,2,1 min on 1min off )- PM 5 easy

Sun - AM, 15 easy - PM, 5 easy

Total: ~94 miles

Before those weeks, it was pretty much 65-75 mile weeks consistently.

Most of the higher mileage weeks are done in 10-12 runs. When I double, I do about 4-5 miles easy in the mornings.

I'm pretty sure my general fitness has improved since a couple of months ago. I have a hilly route that I do once in awhile and I've seen my average easy pace on this route drop.

I like pretty much everything I see there. Why don't you cap that long run at 10 miles for awhile, and also, if you can get to a track substitue one of those interval sessions with some shorter repeats a la SOM (150-200). Full recovery.

What are tempo intervals?

(2 X 6,5,4,3,2,1 min on 1min off )-

Is this 6 on, 6 off, 5 on, 5 off, 4 on, 4 off? or is it 6 (1), 5 (1), 4 (1), 3 (1), etc?

For tempo intervals, I'll do something like 2 X 15min. @ tempo pace with 5 min recovery rather than just a continuous threshold effort.

I don't do ladder intervals regularly. But when I did a session, it was 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 min on with 1 min recovery between.

I still don't see anything wrong with what you're doing.

Try substituting one of those tempo repeats with SOM style 150-200s, or try running a 1:00 10 times.

You're getting down weeks, you're not killing yourself on long runs, you're getting in doubles, you're doing everything right. Maybe you're just getting old? or even better, getting ready to go to the next level. Over the years I've noticed that whenever a breakthrough was eminent I almost always experienced a slump right before. ...maybe maybe?

malmo wrote:

try running slower wrote:

> This could be the problem.... Your "comfortable" pace for most runs is

> probably too fast relative to your ability. You could get away with it at

> lower mileages but it's taking its toll now. When increasing the mileage

> you need to also slow down the paces of most runs a bit.

This is not correct. When bumping mileage his easy running pace should be getting faster, not slower. The whole idea of bumping mileage is to improve general aerobic fitness. Aerobic easy runs are the same pace at 60mpw as it is at 90 or 190, the only difference at the higher levels is improved fitness.

A followup question on that from a self-coached and relatively clueless runner: Do you have an easily digestable guideline for mileage increases? You mentioned getting used to a bump after about three weeks; would you thus suggest "increase, wait three weeks, and if you're not handling it well, re-evaluate" as a guideline? (where "handling it well" means feeling a bit faster overall, or at least not slower, etc.)

I ask because I've been trying to up things to a good training range, and so far it's been working pretty well, but I'm certain I'll hit some limits pretty soon. My long runs are probably a bit long by your standards (16-18 usually, with one 20 last week to stress things a bit), but I'm starting to discover the wisdom of doubles, so I feel like I'm slipping a bit more towards the training you advocate. Over the last 6 weeks, my mileage was 56, 59, 67, 70, 62, 79. The 62 was a deliberate down week - I felt a bit crappy that Monday and figured it was a sign. My longish run at the end of the 62 week felt amazingly easy; the long run at the end of this week (79) felt pretty crappy.

Yes that would be a fair interpretation.

I still think that a 20 miler or even a 16 miler is too far for someone running 60 miles a week.

[/quote]

Mon - Recovery 1 hr

Tues - AM, 4 easy - PM, 11 tempo intervals

Wed - PM, 13 easy

Thus - AM, 5 easy - PM, 11 easy

Fri - AM, 4 easy - PM, 4 easy

Sat - AM, 10 - ladder intervals (2 X 6,5,4,3,2,1 min on 1min off )- PM 5 easy

Sun - AM, 15 easy - PM, 5 easy

Total: ~94 miles

[/quote]

There is absolutely no reason for the 5 easy on Sunday. What was the point of doing the 15 miles in the morning for? That 5 miles as you might think it is recovery and getting some stuff out of your legs, I think it is more detrimental than beneficial. If you were to run just the 15 in the AM, you would have a full 24 hours of recovery before your next run, rather than ~12 (given that your run at the same time in the mornings). So what 89 instead of 94? Tack on some 4x100m strides after 4 runs and you'll hit 90. It's a Long Run day for a reason, and then even take your 1 hour recovery on Monday slower.

Plus, no matter who you are, 4 hours is not sleep, its a nap, and how long before your last run did you run that race played a important factor also.

No Chance Kid wrote:

There is absolutely no reason for the 5 easy on Sunday. What was the point of doing the 15 miles in the morning for?

Plus, no matter who you are, 4 hours is not sleep, its a nap, and how long before your last run did you run that race played a important factor also.

Good points. I sometimes do a 4-5 mile easy run on Sat/Sun just to get out and escape boredom. Monday's are usually set aside for recovery so I don't think it would hurt my training.

The race I did this weekend wasn't really planned. I had an easy 10 & 8 mile run the previous two days. I woke up that morning and decided to do a race instead of intervals.

Instead of doing strides, I try to tack on 6-8 10sec hill sprints in the middle of an easy run once or twice a week (in the middle because the best hill I found for this is a couple miles from my place).

Only for the short term. Your body is adjusting to the new load. It will take a half a year, but once your body adjusts, it'll be permananent. Then you'll feel like you're running 50 mile weeks and you'll have crazy fast intervals with lesser muscle failure.

Even if you step off the mileage, you'll find you'll have th capacity to jump right back into it and you'll adjust even quicker than the norm.

It's the same reason a marathoner can run 15 milers without even thinking about it - probably every day, but some milers or steeplechasers will make a big ordeal out of it.

malmo wrote:

Yes that would be a fair interpretation.

I still think that a 20 miler or even a 16 miler is too far for someone running 60 miles a week.

Thanks! I'll be back in about 160 miles (2 weeks) with more foolish questions.

Well, okay, maybe I have a few more. I haven't found these answered in other threads, but if I should go digging, I'm happy to: I'm training for a marathon that's 12 weeks out. I've been using Pfitz's schedule, and the more I run it, the more I'm starting to appreciate that 60-80mpw isn't "training properly." The long runs *do* still take a fair bit out of me, but at 60-70mpw, I can go and run 13-14 without blinking, and then do it again the next day (and then take a rest day). I'll see in the coming weeks how that equation changes at 80mpw.

I'd bet "yes", but I'm curious: Does it become the case that at what you'd define as a reasonable mileage for training for the marathon that an 18-20 mile run is similarly a no-brainer?

Where does the "right" mileage for the marathon start, where I understand that there are obvious individual differences? 100-110mpw? Is it worth getting up to that mileage "for mileage's sake" if my goal is to run a really solid marathon about two years from now, or would you instead work it up slowly focusing on overall speed development?

(Would that answer change if I'm 35 and would like to run the fastest marathon I can before I start slowing down, but my current PRs are pretty crappy by real runner standards so I've got a lot of room.)

Uhh, that was a lot of detailed questions from a random pseudo-anonymous poster on the internet... answers greatly appreciated if you have time, but I fully understand if you don't.

Highonkocaine wrote:

Only for the short term. Your body is adjusting to the new load. It will take a half a year, but once your body adjusts, it'll be permananent. Then you'll feel like you're running 50 mile weeks and you'll have crazy fast intervals with lesser muscle failure.

Even if you step off the mileage, you'll find you'll have th capacity to jump right back into it and you'll adjust even quicker than the norm.

It's the same reason a marathoner can run 15 milers without even thinking about it - probably every day, but some milers or steeplechasers will make a big ordeal out of it.

He was going better on 60 mpw, what does that tell you?

Bumping up the mileage should be gradual, it shouldn't cause long periods of fatigue, that will only reduce fitness because it will reduce the quality of the hard workouts.

And where do you get the idea that the benefits of 6 months of higher mileage are permanent? You aren't old enough to know that.

J.O. wrote:

And where do you get the idea that the benefits of 6 months of higher mileage are permanent? You aren't old enough to know that.

Highonkocaine is right. Once you've made the leap the ability to ramp up again quickly is easy. So in that sense, it's permanent. I think that's what he was saying, anyway.

Well it's a confidence issue, you know what you can handle etc, but most runners ramp it up too quickly and get too tired to do quality workouts don't they?

I think mileage is only beneficial in terms of improved concentration for longer periods, thus helping us do more quality work and hopefully better recovery between workouts. I think most runners fall into the trap of thinking that doing the mileage at a faster and faster pace gives them more 'aerobic benefits' which is not physiologically correct.

It's the quality stuff that really counts, and more mileage should help us do more quality. If not then something is wrong.

I think you just need to give your body some time to get used to the new routine.

How Things Really Work wrote:

a question bout grass wrote:

Maybe it was because he only slept for 4 hours the night before...

Lot's of people have bad nights of sleep before races without losing ~20 per mile off their pace. That's ridiculous.

I have run within 12 seconds of my 5k PR off 4 hours of sleep. Felt awful, didn't run particularly well, but I still ran within a range of predictability...2 minutes in a 10k is a f*ckton

I ran my 5k road PB coming directly from a night shift. One night with little sleep doesn´t do anything to your physical capacity.

well. wrote:

Lot's of people have bad nights of sleep before races without losing ~20 per mile off their pace. That's ridiculous.

Lot's more people have had bad nights sleep and perform poorly.