Because it didn't. The Roman Empire fragmented and economies became more locally focused in the west. That was the only real change. Any other questions?
ponderer of things wrote:
Why did taxation and a slave-based economy evolve into feudalism, state turn to religion, invention/infrastructure to ruin?
Rene the Cart wrote:
Rome went down because it was too old: you're around that long and problems build up. You can pick out tons of specific reasons, but they all come down to being so freaking old. Once you get the fall of Rome, barbarians take over with a tribal rather than bureaucratic system, and people flee to manors/feudal lords.
But China was unified long before Rome was founded, and lasted much longer. Why's that?
fasdfsdafas wrote:
Rene the Cart wrote:Rome went down because it was too old: you're around that long and problems build up. You can pick out tons of specific reasons, but they all come down to being so freaking old. Once you get the fall of Rome, barbarians take over with a tribal rather than bureaucratic system, and people flee to manors/feudal lords.
But China was unified long before Rome was founded, and lasted much longer. Why's that?
Because their Dragon Style Kung Fu was stronger than Rome's Mantis Style.
Rome failed for the same reason the US is failing now; the government got too big, spent too much, imposed too many controls, debased its currency and ultimately destroyed the economy.
While I'm not an expert on this, I think the dark ages took hold because life revolved around religion.
"The Middle Ages were an era of mysticism, ruled by blind faith and blind obedience to the dogma that faith is superior to reason."
"The medieval period, under the sway of such philosophers as Plotinus and Augustine, was an era dominated by Platonism. During much of this period Aristotle’s philosophy was almost unknown in the West."
Two of the dumbest statements ever made on Letsrun.
Rational Economics wrote:
"The Middle Ages were an era of mysticism, ruled by blind faith and blind obedience to the dogma that faith is superior to reason."
"The medieval period, under the sway of such philosophers as Plotinus and Augustine, was an era dominated by Platonism. During much of this period Aristotle’s philosophy was almost unknown in the West."
http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/middle_ages.html
I would agree that the reason is rooted in religion, but not in Christianity. What was known as Christianity then was not anything like what we read in the Bible. The Catholics usurped Christianity and mutated it into a power play to control people. After Luther, people started to read the Bible and figure it out for themselves. This is when the nations became freer.
ponderer of things wrote:
Why did taxation and a slave-based economy evolve into feudalism, state turn to religion, invention/infrastructure to ruin?
First of all--
In the west-- the Republic + Empire lasted for a ~thousand years.
In the east-- Constantinople didn't fall until 1453 although it became pretty insignificant much earlier.
When you start measuring the lifespan of a society using thousands of years-- that society is pretty damn stable. Given the rate of technological change nowadays, we'd be really lucky to get another 50-100 or so years in our role as a superpower post WWI...
Second-- you think that the US has special interests? The Roman empire had them coming out the wahoo. If you wanted to buy a ship-- you had to go to the ship-builder's guild. You want to sail the ship between particular places-- you had to get a special permit from a merchant's guild.
All of those built-in special interests made growth-- and raising tax revenue-- hard. No different from Greek gov't employees or from Wall Street traders...
My take on it wrote:
Sarcasm Enthusiast wrote:America is like the Roman Empire? Wow, that's the first time I've ever heard that!
Are you serious?
Yes.
Yeah blame the Dark Ages on the Catholics just like most Protestants are quick to blame Catholics for everything. The truth is the Catholic church preserved much of the intellectual and philosophical works that would have otherwise been lost.
Racehorse wrote:
I would agree that the reason is rooted in religion, but not in Christianity. What was known as Christianity then was not anything like what we read in the Bible. The Catholics usurped Christianity and mutated it into a power play to control people. After Luther, people started to read the Bible and figure it out for themselves. This is when the nations became freer.
They kept the ones that they needed to continue their dominance of the masses. They are the apostate church that Paul warned his generation of.
Jeri is a Jedi wrote:
Christianity
This
fasdfsdafas wrote:But China was unified long before Rome was founded, and lasted much longer. Why's that?
Because after the Mongols pwned the Tang or the Song or whoever was ruling whenever the Mongol invasion happened (1200ish?), the Ming pwned the Mongols and re-established a coherent, strong dynasty that lasted until the West pwned them. If the Eastern Roman Empire had similarly pwned the Huns and retaken Rome, maybe things play differently. Or if the Germanic tribes are, well, not tribal, maybe you get a strong central Rome under a different people. Somebody will take out your empire, your dynasty is gonna fall, and China did too, it lasted what, maybe 1400 years pre-Mongols, and another 400-600 after? Byzantium (Rome) lasted a good 1400-1600 years. So the analogy isn't too unexact. So somebody's gonna take you out. It then becomes a question of who takes them out. China happened to have major periods of peace, art, technology and military power on each side of a relatively short period of barbarian rule. The Middle Ages in the West wouldn't have been nearly as long if Charlemagne had believed in primogeniture instead of breaking up his empire himself. But time would have pwned the Franks too. Problems build up over time, and eventually one of them pwns you. Just like your body builds up various ailments that we collectively call 'aging' and it eventually goes down. Do you die because of the heart attack? Or the buildup of plaque in your arteries? Or the compounding loss of the DNA sequence at the end of your genes that leads to your body being unable to reproduce its cells as much or as often? Causes compile.
Most medievalists date the middle ages from c. 500 to c. 1500 AD, with the front end usually pegged to the fall of Rome (western half) in 476, and the back end with the fall of Constantinople in 1453 (some also like Columbus in 1492 or the 95 Theses in 1517). However, there are two major transitional periods. The "early modern" period from c. 1500-1800 includes absolutism, proto-capitalism, the Italian Renaissance, the Reformation, and industrialization. And from 476 to 800 (with the Coronation of Charlemagne) usually gets tagged as "late antiquity." What we call "medieval Europe" is largely a synthesis of the Christian Roman Empire and Germanic "barbarian" culture, with the flavor varying from more Roman/Latin in the south and more Germanic in the north.
That said, nobody at the time ever knew they were medieval. It was always the modern world to them. later, we historians go back and decide where to put the chapter breaks after the fact.
Fall of Rome and break up of that society, laws and ruling class.
Also the rise of Islam even though Islam far better prized knowledge than did the the successors kingdoms of the Rome.
I visited Rome about 10 years ago. Last time I checked it was doing just fine for itself.
fasdfsdafas wrote:
Rene the Cart wrote:Rome went down because it was too old: you're around that long and problems build up. You can pick out tons of specific reasons, but they all come down to being so freaking old. Once you get the fall of Rome, barbarians take over with a tribal rather than bureaucratic system, and people flee to manors/feudal lords.
But China was unified long before Rome was founded, and lasted much longer. Why's that?
fasdfsdafas wrote:
But China was unified long before Rome was founded, and lasted much longer. Why's that?
The first Chinese dynasties go back to long before Rome was founded, but they hardly constituted a "unified" China. The size of the Chinese empire waxed and waned throughout the centuries and I'm not sure that I'd say that the Han dynasty founded in 200BC was the same "unified China" as the Qing dynasty (1900s)
I'm sure China was also helped by the fact that some of their borders were easy to defend, which meant that they weren't quite as susceptible to outside invasion (that and, unlike the Romans, they didn't wander all over the continent looking for a fight).
Anyway, you can date the end of the Roman empire to 1453 and the fall of the Byzantine Empire if you are feeling charitable. That gives them over 2000 years of history, which is pretty good.
When did the Empire fall? I thought this guy was the current emperor:
My take on it wrote:
Sarcasm Enthusiast wrote:America is like the Roman Empire? Wow, that's the first time I've ever heard that!
Are you serious?
No he isn't...thus the posting name.
watchout wrote:
Well that's a fail. Everyone knows "The Plague" as the Bubonic Plague, which first struck in the mid/late 14th century and resurfaced several times up through the mid 17th century. The Procopius Plague you mentioned happened at the very start of the Dark Ages, not even 70 years after the fall of Rome.
It looks like someone here needs a bit of remedial assistance. I've attached a brief timeline of major events spanning the Early Middle Ages:
1. 372-410 Fall of Roman Empire
2. 430-426 Athenian Plague (likely was not bubonic plague) during Peloponnesian War (Athens vs. Sparta 431 to 404)
3. 541-542 Justiniatic Plague (likely was bubonic plague)started in Ethopia or Central Asia and spread to Egypt before being carried along trading and military routes. Plague was spread from Asia Minor to Africa, Italy and Western Europe
4. 610 Early Middle Ages begin
The point is that widespread illness was a calamity that destabilized societies, governments and economies.
