Business Owners Are People Too

@ Individual Liberty

Damn straight! Let's cut out our regulations, public services, and pork barrel spending! The sooner we race to the bottom against the Chinese, the better off we will be!

Look out for #1, that's what I say!

I think it's relatively clear too. If government is going to help businesses it's not because businesses and business people are semi-deities that have earned our gratitude. It's because prosperous businesses are thought to help create a prosperous economy which benefits all citizens. A government which helps business is doing it in the expectation of getting something in return, just as a government that helps labor is expecting something in return.

Nothing in the Declaration of Independence defines what "liberty" is and it certainly does not mention governments helping businesses at all.

Actually most business owners are entities not people.

From Abraham Lincoln, 1864:

"We all declare for liberty; but in using the same word we do not all mean the same thing. With some the word liberty may mean for each man to do as he pleases with himself, and the product of his labor; while with others, the same word many mean for some men to do as they please with other men, and the product of other men's labor. Here are two, not only different, but incompatible things, called by the same name - liberty. And it follows that each of the things is, by the respective parties, called by two different and incompatible names - liberty and tyranny."

another average american wrote:

I think the point people are making here is business owners DON'T earn it all by themselves...they have help from the government in becoming successful.

I am a small business owner. I am not rich. I just 5 minutes ago paid $4,683.82 to the federal government to cover FICA Withholding, Medicare Withholding,Federal Withholding and Payroll Taxes for this month. This is in addition to the State taxes I paid as well. I have 3 employees. This is BY FAR the most expensive thing I have in my budget. In my opinion, I could do without the cost of the government's help.

Listen, I am not anti-tax. I am totally against outsourcing labor. But to act like the government doesn't put a pretty extreme burden on small businesses is kind of ignorant. It is hard.

see: self-affirmation bias.

I'm going to sound like a dick here but just to clarify, more than half of that $4.6K is withheld wages, the other less-than-half portion is employer paid payroll taxes (the FICA match). I'm not trying to give you grief, your post was insightful and reasonable but the numbers are misleading the way they read. A large portion of your monthly 'tax' deposit were earned employee wages that are netted out of their paychecks.

Big Boss Man wrote:

I am a small business owner. I am not rich. I just 5 minutes ago paid $4,683.82 to the federal government to cover FICA Withholding, Medicare Withholding,Federal Withholding and Payroll Taxes for this month. This is in addition to the State taxes I paid as well. I have 3 employees. This is BY FAR the most expensive thing I have in my budget. In my opinion, I could do without the cost of the government's help.

Listen, I am not anti-tax. I am totally against outsourcing labor. But to act like the government doesn't put a pretty extreme burden on small businesses is kind of ignorant. It is hard.

quote]

I am a small business owner. I am not rich. I just 5 minutes ago paid $4,683.82 to the federal government to cover FICA Withholding, Medicare Withholding,Federal Withholding and Payroll Taxes for this month. This is in addition to the State taxes I paid as well. I have 3 employees. This is BY FAR the most expensive thing I have in my budget. In my opinion, I could do without the cost of the government's help.

Listen, I am not anti-tax. I am totally against outsourcing labor. But to act like the government doesn't put a pretty extreme burden on small businesses is kind of ignorant. It is hard.[/quote]

If there was no medicare and social security, small business owners would have to pay their employees enough to allow them to purchase the same benefits on the private market. Given that private insurers long ago stopped wanting to insure the elderly and recent examples of the stock market halving itself in a matter of months, I do not think you would be able to pay your employees enough to cover those expenses.

Our government over steps its bounds less than every other government on Earth. Thank you Republicans. Our companies overstep their bounds more than any other country's. Thank you Republicans.

Precious Roy wrote:

If there was no medicare and social security, small business owners would have to pay their employees enough to allow them to purchase the same benefits on the private market. Given that private insurers long ago stopped wanting to insure the elderly and recent examples of the stock market halving itself in a matter of months, I do not think you would be able to pay your employees enough to cover those expenses.

I am not being rude, okay? I don't want to start a pissing match; i totally get your point...

...but you cannot seriously think that my employees intend on using medicare and social security benefits. That is laughable. You know what I do? I purchase health insurance for my employees. That I pay for. Separately from Medicare. I also match 401K. So I not only provide my employees with a fair salary, I f***ing COVER THESE EXPENSES MYSELF IN ADDITION TO THE BOGUS SHIT FROM THE GOVERNMENT.

hahahaha precious roy got bitchslapped

Most of this $4,683.82 was WITHHOLDING from your employees pay not an additional cost to your business.

Payroll taxes are not at all the most expensive thing in your budget because your employees' salaries are a higher expense.

Your company will pay income tax on your remaining profits after all expenses have been paid.

No income tax if you have a loss.

X-Runner wrote:

Most of this $4,683.82 was WITHHOLDING from your employees pay not an additional cost to your business.

Payroll taxes are not at all the most expensive thing in your budget because your employees' salaries are a higher expense.

Your company will pay income tax on your remaining profits after all expenses have been paid.

No income tax if you have a loss.

About half, you are right. Still, it is a cost. Taxes are a cost. They are high. They are hard to pay when you have other expenses you need to cover (such as salaries). It would be easier if they were lower. It would be MUCH easier if I didn't have to pay entitlements at all.

Take away your straw men.

My point is that the government's "help" isn't free. Not even close. It is the single most expensive thing I pay for right now. If you add everyone's salaries together, sure that is more, but individually I pay the government more for their "help" than I do any single person.

Go live in Nazi Israel and see how you like it there !

Your employees don't need medicare and SS now, but their parents do and they will also in the future.

Without medicare and SS, people would have to save WAY more for their own retirement and would have to spend a lot more money taking care of their retired parents. Medicare exists because private insurers wouldn't insure the ederly. SS exists because a lot of people don't earn enough to save enough for retirement and should not be left to the ravages of the market to see whether they get to live with dignity as a senoir citizen or die during a cold snap, like people used to do before SS because they chose to pay for food instead of heat.

The point is that you get a much better deal paying that money to the government than having your employees demand higher wages in order to save enough to pay for private health insurance after retirement and for their parents.

So, the choice is yours, line your pockets with some extra cash at the expense of senior citizens or be a man and pay your fair share.

L Chaim wrote:

Go live in Nazi Israel and see how you like it there !

Please elaborate on this ridiculous statement. I really doubt there are that many Nazis in Israel.

We are also small business owners who pay have exactly the same sort of tax burden that you are facing. And you know what? The Republicans, assuming you are one, have completely hood-winked the average small business person to *think* that they are on our side. This simply is not true. Republicans protect REAL MONEY, DEEP BIG MONEY, not small business people, so honestly I really believe that you should read what Obama and Democrats (versus Republicans) ACTUALLY PROPOSE, which is MORE small business friendly than what the Republicans propose, rather than the rhetoric spewed out by conservatives.

It's not like Republicans are going to dissolve the tax code. How much did you pay in taxes under Bush?

The fact is that Republicans would have FAR FEWER supporters if those supporters actually understood what their supposed Republican saviors were planning to do "for" them. Republicans absolutely rely on ignorance and misinformation because the overwhelming majority of Americans, including small busines owners, would benefit the most from Democratic legislation.

When telling people that they are ignorant of what's actually proposed, please site specific examples of what has been proposed. Speaking in generalities as you have only perpetuates speaking in talking points. It currently appears that you are as ignorant as those you are chastising (I'm not saying that you are, just that you appear that way by not providing any specifics to support your argument.)

Ah yes, the people that disagree with you only do so because they are dumb.

You are right that more people would probably benefit if the Democrats did whatever they wanted, at least in the short term. All healthcare, including elective cosmetic procedures, would be covered, education would be free all the way through college, and every person could use public transportation to go anywhere.

However, we would all be fvcked in the long-run because only a small percentage of people would actually pay taxes and everyone else would be weened on government cheese. We would eventually go broke because there would be no one left to pay for it all.

I'm not saying the government shouldn't provide any social services or regulate anything, but it should at least try to live within its means. Argue all you want that the U.S. coddles businesses, but the fact remains that our corporate tax rates are among the highest in the world.