PhysMech wrote:
Coacht27 wrote:There are a lot of drills in use. Some are ineffective and some are actually counterproductive. I try to not ask muscles to fire in a manner not actually done in the sprinting or running motion that we are trying to achieve.
Nodding in agreement again. Neck is getting pretty sore now. Come on Coacht27 ease up. I got a race in a couple of days.
No one can see you nodding, man. Just stop. And Coach T, why don't you tell us which drills you use.
J.O. wrote:
Huh? Don't do any sprints????
Right.
Getting heavy and muscle bound like typical sprinters is NOT going to be helpful.
Most of them can't break 5:30 for a mile. The OP is already faster than that.
PhysMech wrote:
I'm nodding in agreement so much with this my neck is cramping.
Push on through the cramp. Paula nodded her way to world records ;-)
J.R. wrote:
Getting heavy and muscle bound like typical sprinters is NOT going to be helpful.
I can sort of understand middle distance guys worrying that they will gain weight if they hit the gym. They are absolutely wrong, proven many times over, but you can understand the worry. But if by some fluke of nature you did find yourself bulking up, well, you could just stop then. It's not like you're going to do some drills on Tuesday night and wake up a green hulk with your shirt in tatters the next morning.
Ethiopia's national coach studied sports science in Moscow, and for decades their athletes have drilled, drilled, drilled and worked on basic speed. Buddy Edelen (Marathon WR on the 1950s) did 6x100 a couple of times a week all year round. Lydiard's guys trained like sprinters once a week. Coe lifted and did circuits with great 400m runners in college. Does Geb look heavy and musclebound? Did Coe? Come to think of it, does Anthony Wariner or Allyson Felix?
eurodonkey wrote:
It's not like you're going to do some drills on Tuesday night and wake up a green hulk with your shirt in tatters the next morning.
Oh but yeah, it is like that.
What are Felix and Wariner's times for a 10k, 5k, or even a 2 mile?
Your information is totally wrong. Buddy Edelen never ran 6x100 even one time in his life.
What he did run was a long fast run of 20-23 miles, medium fast run of 12-15 miles, 25x 440y with 220y jogs in 60 seconds once or twice a week or else a second session of 880s with similar short recoveries, plus 48x110y in 14/15s with 30 second 110y jogs after each, and he ran the same schedule every week. That's 6 miles of 110's at 6 minute mile pace overall.
I know for a fact that neither Felix nor Wariner could run even that session of 48x110, much less the rest of it.
J.R. wrote:
eurodonkey wrote:It's not like you're going to do some drills on Tuesday night and wake up a green hulk with your shirt in tatters the next morning.
Oh but yeah, it is like that.
What are Felix and Wariner's times for a 10k, 5k, or even a 2 mile?
Your information is totally wrong. Buddy Edelen never ran 6x100 even one time in his life.
What he did run was a long fast run of 20-23 miles, medium fast run of 12-15 miles, 25x 440y with 220y jogs in 60 seconds once or twice a week or else a second session of 880s with similar short recoveries, plus 48x110y in 14/15s with 30 second 110y jogs after each, and he ran the same schedule every week. That's 6 miles of 110's at 6 minute mile pace overall.
I know for a fact that neither Felix nor Wariner could run even that session of 48x110, much less the rest of it.
Run with the Champions has Edelen doing 100 meter sprints (3 sets of 10), as well as a workout of sets of 55-110-150-220. Don't know how accurate that book is.
laughingostrich wrote:
PhysMech wrote:Nodding in agreement again. Neck is getting pretty sore now. Come on Coacht27 ease up. I got a race in a couple of days.
No one can see you nodding, man. Just stop. And Coach T, why don't you tell us which drills you use.
step over drive down march, power skip, pop up skip, bound, cross over step, in place running. now you really do not know much more than before. these are my names for the exercises and are reasonably descriptive.
what I dont do is more telling. no butt kicks, no a b or c skips, no stiff leg kicks, no carioca steps, no high knees. we concemtrate more on high feet which does bring knees up but the foot comes up and cycles over the knee.
I am a mechanical engineer by education and my approach does reflect that training.
we do not incorporate drills dailey but only once a week in preseason preparation. we do the drills to near exhaustion of the muscles being worked. its a novel approach but I have found it to be effective.
J.R. wrote:
Getting heavy and muscle bound like typical sprinters is NOT going to be helpful.
You won't get heavy and muscle bound whatever training you do unless you eat enough to gain weight.
People are always coming out with this "I don't want to do weights because I'll get big". You won't unless you have a calorie surplus. Control your food intake and you can do all the sprinting you like without gaining weight (although obviously you don't want to do too much sprint training as a distance runner).
CoachT, thanks for being so helpful.
coacht27 wrote:
step over drive down march, power skip, pop up skip, bound, cross over step, in place running. now you really do not know much more than before. these are my names for the exercises and are reasonably descriptive.
what I dont do is more telling. no butt kicks, no a b or c skips, no stiff leg kicks, no carioca steps, no high knees. we concemtrate more on high feet which does bring knees up but the foot comes up and cycles over the knee.
I am a mechanical engineer by education and my approach does reflect that training.
we do not incorporate drills dailey but only once a week in preseason preparation. we do the drills to near exhaustion of the muscles being worked. its a novel approach but I have found it to be effective.
Very cool. Would you ever consider putting some of this stuff on paper or video for us to see? I know you said this is always done with close supervision, but if we can't try it for ourselves, well, how do we try this for ourselves?
Or if that's not realistic, can you give us any suggestions we CAN try on our own. For example, I'm an 800 runner, so basic leg speed is pretty important. My fastest 200 is 23-high, but I anticipate some of my 800's this year will go out in 26.xx, since I am trying to run 1:51/1:52. It would be nice to get that 200 speed down a little so I'm not so close to redlining.
After each run, on grass.
3 x 60 strides with good technique
3 x 60 high knees
3 x 60 heels to butt
3 x 60 fast, short strides
3 x 60 start easy and increase to top speed
3 x 60 sprint all out
6 x 60 bounding
Can't remember where I got this from.
J.R. wrote:
Your information is totally wrong. Buddy Edelen never ran 6x100 even one time in his life.
There are excerpts from his training diaries in Lore of Running.
I am not saying it was a mainstay of his training. I'm saying a lot of very good distance runners do a little bit of fast running to maintain/improve their basic speed.
man oh man wrote:
Or if that's not realistic, can you give us any suggestions we CAN try on our own.
Steve Magness writes well about it..
http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2009/05/sprint-training-for-distance-runners.htmlHe is (correctly IMHO) focused on making small changes to your training, not saying throw away all your existing sessions.
J.R. wrote:
J.O. wrote:Huh? Don't do any sprints????
Right.
Getting heavy and muscle bound like typical sprinters is NOT going to be helpful.
Most of them can't break 5:30 for a mile. The OP is already faster than that.
*****************************************************
I do lots of sprints, it's an important part of training for all runners. I don't put on muscle, I'm not that kind of build.
The OP wants a higher level of fitness, and that relates to all speeds. He's never going to be fast over 200m, but he has the ability to do lot of 200's at a good pace, just like I do.
man oh man wrote:
Or if that's not realistic, can you give us any suggestions we CAN try on our own. For example, I'm an 800 runner, so basic leg speed is pretty important. My fastest 200 is 23-high, but I anticipate some of my 800's this year will go out in 26.xx, since I am trying to run 1:51/1:52. It would be nice to get that 200 speed down a little so I'm not so close to redlining.
speed over 200 is paramount for an 800 runner. Lydiard contended that to be a world class 800m man you needed 22 sec speed. With todays rubber tracks that may be even a faster requirement.
man oh man wrote:
coacht27 wrote:step over drive down march, power skip, pop up skip, bound, cross over step, in place running. now you really do not know much more than before. these are my names for the exercises and are reasonably descriptive.
what I dont do is more telling. no butt kicks, no a b or c skips, no stiff leg kicks, no carioca steps, no high knees. we concemtrate more on high feet which does bring knees up but the foot comes up and cycles over the knee.
I am a mechanical engineer by education and my approach does reflect that training.
we do not incorporate drills dailey but only once a week in preseason preparation. we do the drills to near exhaustion of the muscles being worked. its a novel approach but I have found it to be effective.
Very cool. Would you ever consider putting some of this stuff on paper or video for us to see? I know you said this is always done with close supervision, but if we can't try it for ourselves, well, how do we try this for ourselves?
I would be happy to do a video and post it if I were competent to produce such a thing, however I am afraid I am a No. 2 pencil in a dot com world.
Lydiard also said that 800 runners shouldn't focus too much on improving their 200 speed, but on speed endurance instead.
man oh man wrote:
Or if that's not realistic, can you give us any suggestions we CAN try on our own. For example, I'm an 800 runner, so basic leg speed is pretty important. My fastest 200 is 23-high, but I anticipate some of my 800's this year will go out in 26.xx, since I am trying to run 1:51/1:52. It would be nice to get that 200 speed down a little so I'm not so close to redlining.
Then you should be doing lots of 200's in 26-27 and a few 400's in 54-55
It's not just about how fast you are but how you can control your pace through the race.
J.O. wrote:
Lydiard also said that 800 runners shouldn't focus too much on improving their 200 speed, but on speed endurance instead.
although that may seem to be a contradiction, but not really. I think his remark about 22 sec speed was pointed more to natural talent as anything. If you are basicly not very fast then maybe the 800 is not the event you should concentrate on. I think if you can run under 24 without working on the speed then the chance of developing 22 sec speed is good, but if 26 is all you have falling out of bed then maybe a longer distance is more your cup of tea.