J.O. wrote:
Why wouldn't girls in 15.30 shape warm up at sub six mile pace before a hard work out?
How many of those girls are actually 15:30 runners? Even if they all were, if you went to a mediocre D3 mens school (which, let's be honest, that's as fast as these ladies are running) you would call them idiots for warming up like that. It is counterproductive, the workout is supposed to be the hard part. If you are racing a 5k at 5:00 pace, sub 6:00 is not easy no matter what you say.
trollism2 wrote:
Obviously they're dirty, systematic doping cheaters.
Probably. Who knows eh?
Anyone know the volume these girls are running?
haha YO wrote:
How many of those girls are actually 15:30 runners? Even if they all were, if you went to a mediocre D3 mens school (which, let's be honest, that's as fast as these ladies are running) you would call them idiots for warming up like that. It is counterproductive, the workout is supposed to be the hard part. If you are racing a 5k at 5:00 pace, sub 6:00 is not easy no matter what you say.
People would call them idiots, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they are idiots. Maybe they are and it's all wrong, maybe not.
Some of these kids are among the very fastest in the world of their age, they must be doing something right.
ray wrote:
quote]trollism wrote:
But when Africans train hard at a young age they're 'putting us all to shame'.
No, huge difference in culture. And they don't do these workouts at a young age.[/quote]
The average EA good level junior does 3 x the training of a uk junior (who are undetrained if they want to get to elite level). This group is an exception
trollism2 wrote:
Obviously they're dirty, systematic doping cheaters.
Hang on mate - marmite, warm beer and soggy chips aren't on the banned list yet.
trollism wrote:
Some of these kids are among the very fastest in the world of their age, they must be doing something right.
Yes, they are insanely talented and doing very hard workouts. That they have going for them.
I guess in the end everyone is different, I tend to think you could get more out of them if they slowed down a bit on warmups and cooldowns but who knows? Running is very wierd, what works for one may not work for another.
Because we have no altitude, lousy weather, and nobody to train with in winter if you're at Mo's level.
Summer is a bit different: lots of world class athletes base themselves in his corner of London.
ukathleticscoach wrote:
The average EA good level junior does 3 x the training of a uk junior (who are undetrained if they want to get to elite level). This group is an exception
In fairness, the average good level EA junior is a few years older than their similar aged European counterpart.
Johnny Hay is part of the group and ran 14.02 5k, aged 18. How does this compare to the best American High Schoolers?
They are doing what is right for winning NOW. Not what is right for most of these kids to win in the future.
Just look up the rosters of the high-mileage, high intensity (80 mpw+, lots of sub 6 pace for "easy" runs) powerhouse teams at the high school level in the U.S., and see how many of their prodigies experience the same success at the NCAA and Professional levels of the sport.
Also, haha YO is right... one minute slower than your race pace for 5k is NOT easy, even if you claim it is. You don't recover that way. None of the male elites (sub-4, sub 13:30) I know and train with warm up or cool down at a sub 6 min pace, and they race MUCH faster than these high school kids.
You're reading too much into the whole warm-up, cool-down thing.
A lot of it is hyperbole meant to make the article more dramatic.
If the stars they have don't make it as decent senior athletes I'll agree with you, but right now things are looking good.
Twell is 22 and doing fine, Purdue is 19 and could win NCAA XC as a tempo run and Gorecka isn't far off being able to do the same at 16.
18 might make him a college frosh in the U.S., but right now we have at least two guys that could better that in H.S.(Lukas and Craig, both 17). Most years 14:05-10 would be the top runner (not based on actual times since it is so rarely raced in HS)
marie wrote:
Johnny Hay is part of the group and ran 14.02 5k, aged 18. How does this compare to the best American High Schoolers?
trollism wrote:
If we are to believe that African kids are running sub 13 and 27 well before they come out of the junior ranks, I would imagine we have to expect that some of them are training pretty damn hard.
When it's time to train hard, they go hard. When it's time to go easy (like...say... the warmup) they go easy.
They laugh at mzungus who race the warmup
smit wrote:
trollism wrote:If we are to believe that African kids are running sub 13 and 27 well before they come out of the junior ranks, I would imagine we have to expect that some of them are training pretty damn hard.
When it's time to train hard, they go hard. When it's time to go easy (like...say... the warmup) they go easy.
They laugh at mzungus who race the warmup
I am intimately familiar with the training methods of a large number of top-level East African distance runners!
Stock LRC Response wrote:
I am intimately familiar with the training methods of a large number of top-level East African distance runners!
Good for you. Fortunately you don't have to be intimately familiar with their training methods to know a thing as basic as this. It's pretty much a common theme. Among people who train with them as well as right from the horse's mouth. Next time you make your way to a race that pays serious cash, the kind that the heavy hitters run (Falmouth, Peachtree, Bay to Breakers, Cherry Blossom, etc), just watch how they warm up and then compare it to the local American studs they're about to leave in the dust. It's kind of funny actually
Do those races test?
I guess it is rather funny. I bet they're certainly laughing on their slow warm-ups. And so are their pimps, oops I mean agents.
RRRR wrote:
They are doing what is right for winning NOW. Not what is right for most of these kids to win in the future.
This much is right. And a chosen few will survive it. Whether they will be as good as they could have been is debatable.
But I don't agree that mileage is the issue - it is mileage AND intensity. The EA kids tend to do more easy running which allows them to better handle the intense stuff later on.
The trouble is when you want to win a junior race over 3km running easy 7-10 mile runs is hardly top of the agenda. Intense VO2 max sessions are.
Lydiard spoke of getting a kid to do the miles and not race until 16. Not bad advice.
trollism wrote:
ukathleticscoach wrote:The average EA good level junior does 3 x the training of a uk junior (who are undetrained if they want to get to elite level). This group is an exception
In fairness, the average good level EA junior is a few years older than their similar aged European counterpart.
True ,even so if you look at the aw athlete profiles its laughable looking at some of the junior internationals training.
Plus the EA does a hell of lot more general running around and are not carted to the end of the block in a car!
Great if you want to avoid injury but the EA's (and US juniors) do a lot more miles than Brits. When you are down the track half the club coaches never even discuss training with the juniors apart from the 2 inteval sessions they do every wk
Steve Ovett started training twice a day aged 17. You see runners aged 21 over here still being molly coddled. You will get injured anyway at some stage you need to go for it in a big way
My piano teacher once said to me if you don't get the speed when you are young you never will. Look at how many hours int. pianists put it in at a young age. Running is no different if you want to get to the top and not just the top of an underperforming country. All training should be progressive, its a fine line between fitness and injury and its a brave coach who would put their athlete through what it takes
How many miles does Charlotte Purdue do ukathleticscoach? You seem to be in the know.
Bearing in mind this 19 year old could win NCAA XC as a tempo run. (repeat I know, but it's relevant given you're Brit bashing).