How do I calculate LT tempo pace?

Don't think of a tempo run in terms of pace and lactate thresholds and whatnot. If you're running a 30 minute tempo tell yourself that you're running a half-marathon practice run.

The key to it is that after the tempo you feel like you got some quick running in but at the same time you feel that you could have gone further without having to really push it.

rekrunner wrote:

I think you should double-check your units, or the book. Normal estimates should be closer to 88% of VO2max. I'd be surprised if Martin & Coe said 75% VO2max for anything, except maybe "easy or long run" pace, but I don't have any of their books.

I can jump in here, as I happen to have Martin & Coe's Better Training for Distance Runners in front of me. Their nifty chart on page 192 shows the 4 training zones (Endurance, Stamina, Speed, Speed&Strength).

The Stamina zone ranges from 75%-90% of VO2max, (75% is also the top-end of the Endurance zone), or 80-90% of max heart rate.

In the text, they describe the anaerobic threshold pace as fairly similar to the 15km and half marathon race paces. He says "if treadmill testing is unavailable, make an initial arbitrary assumption that the threshold occurs at 80% of VO2max pace. (Typically this will be a slight underestimation, but it's better to be too low than too high.) Do two 20-min runs at that pace separated with 5-min recovery at aerobic conditioning pace. It should be 'comfortably hard'. Depending on the outcome, the training pace can be slightly increased or decreased to better match fitness... Depending on heredity & fitness level, the threshold pace may vary from about 75% to as high as 90% of VO2max pace."

Beware silly formulae. And double beware those who preach them.

Learn to run by feel. That way you get quicker and quicker without injury or illness.

If you aren't experienced enough to find the right pace by feel, you can't calculate it with only a 3,200 time.

You just want the fastest pace that feels like it's doing itself without a hint of distress and without a noticeable point of effort increase on your part. If you really aren't experienced enough to nail it down on the fly, odds are you'll go too fast in an attempt to hit some per-mile pace you've decided is the bare minimum acceptable speed. The "LT" is hard to pinpoint even in a lab (many people claim a single point of inflection doesn't even exist), so you won't know when you've reached your precise "threshold" during a run. But you can absolutely learn to recognize when you've entered the "foyer" of the House of Pain. This discovery process is mostly up to you.

Basically, you can't "calculate" an exact LT pace. You can get in the ballpark, but the "pace du jour" will vary depending on how far you're running that day, what the weather's like, how well rested/fueled up/hydrated you've been recently, what other workouts you've been doing, und so weiter.

dhdhdhhdh wrote:

I can jump in here, as I happen to have Martin & Coe's Better Training for Distance Runners in front of me. Their nifty chart on page 192 shows the 4 training zones (Endurance, Stamina, Speed, Speed&Strength).

The Stamina zone ranges from 75%-90% of VO2max, (75% is also the top-end of the Endurance zone), or 80-90% of max heart rate.

That's the part of the book I was referencing. That chart labels the boundary between Aerobic Conditoning (Endurance) and Anaerobic Conditioning (Stamina) as the "Lactate/ventilatory threshold". That boundary is at 75% VO2max.

oh no you dint wrote:

That's the part of the book I was referencing. That chart labels the boundary between Aerobic Conditoning (Endurance) and Anaerobic Conditioning (Stamina) as the "Lactate/ventilatory threshold". That boundary is at 75% VO2max.

Yeah, the illustration makes it look that way, but the text I quoted (pages 195-196) clarify that it can actually be between 75%-90% depeding on the athlete. They actually suggest starting at 80%.

That's where the "running by feel" part comes in that these posters are talking about. Or, testing can help you further pin it down some.

For me, since I'm a relatively new runner without a coach, the formulas are helpful to get me in the ballpark as I try to learn what each of these paces should start to feel like. Just saying "run by feel" without some starting point (formula) is NOT helpful to me as a beginner.

There is not that much difference between what I suggest, McMillian, Daniels, Vigil, Tinman, Canova, Coe/Martin and most other coaches on training paces, just different terminology and how we arrive at those training paces.

For example: the Coe and Martin Stamina Zone would be a zone that incompasses my steady state, AT and LT pace ranges, which yes, all work on stamina. This would also roughly equal Daniels and T and M training paces, etc.

Some define vVO2 max differently, some do different math, and some different ranges but the end result as to what pace to do a 30 miniute (or whatever unit) tempo run at is pretty close between most of us.

I get to my paces differntly than Daniels and McMillian yet my paces are very similar to theirs.

To the poster who said feel is most important, I would agree to a point. I often tell my runners that effort level trumps pace, and I only give them the pace range I think will put them at the right effort level. Having a pace guide isn't necessarily a bad thing, it just needs to be used and adapted appropriately.

And as a poster pointed out, isolating an exact LT pace is very difficult even in the best of laboratory conditions. That is why I go with ranges, as I think anything in that range has some significant benefit.

dhdhdhhdh wrote:

Just saying "run by feel" without some starting point (formula) is NOT helpful to me as a beginner.

Here you go, then.

T = "Threshold Pace" per mile in seconds

A = 3,200 time in seconds

B = 5k time in seconds

C = 10k time in seconds

Now you have to do the number plugging, but ...

T = (0.5728 x A) - 2.6

T = (0.2982 x B) + 60.6

T = (0.1575 x C) + 18.5

I gave the regression equation with a function rule rather than using tabular form (aka a chart) because it takes up less space and formats better.

That 10:08 3,200 gives a "T" of round about 5:46 mile pace. Better long distance runners might have a faster "threshold" pace than these equations predict, partly from nature and partly from immediate nurture. Relative to runners who do better at shorter or middle distances, the long distance specialists will also probably be more sensitive to where their yellow light pace is. Again, that comes somewhat from running habits and somewhat from having muscle fibers more suited to fine control and capable of holding a strong pace more efficiently and for a longer time. See how there's no precise predictor for threshold pace? But this should get you in the ballpark. Until you find the actual feel for a "tempo" run, the "T" pace above should be regarded as the speed limit. Don't go any faster until you figure out whether that pace is too easy or too hard. Then you can play around and be more spontaneous without using a watch, as in a "progression" run.

To assist in gauging the desired feel, try this as a "tempo" workout:

Warm up well, including a few short strides

Run 2 minutes at 10k race pace (if you don't know what that is, you can approximate it by figuring out "C" from "T" using the last equation above)

Walk/jog for 2-3 minutes

Run 20 minutes at 20 seconds per mile slower than the "T" pace you calculated above

Walk/jog for 3 minutes

Run 12 minutes at the "T" pace you calculated above

Walk/jog for 3 minutes

Run 4-8 progressively faster, relaxed, smooth buildups of 15 seconds each, with 3-45 seconds jogging in between each one

Do a cool-down jog

If that adds up to too much running for a beginner, go for 12 minutes instead of 20 minutes for the first segment and go 8 minutes instead of 12 on the second rep.

It gets easier to find the right effort as you get fitter, more experienced and stabilized at the ideal weight. Then you'll have a better handle on how to feel on continuous runs of various lengths. Pace can take a back seat if desired or can be the main focus if desired.

Tanya Skagle wrote:

Run 4-8 progressively faster, relaxed, smooth buildups of 15 seconds each, with 3-45 seconds jogging in between each one

* 30-45 seconds jogging

Yeah OK. That clears it up for me. I haven't actually seen anything from Martin and Coe.

But what I have seen usually contains a "dead-mans" zone between tempo and easy runs, and optionally a reference to marathon pace.