training in racing flats?

Really, barefoot shoes? Seems like that would be a contradictory statement, seeing as "barefoot" implies a lack of shoes. Running barefoot or in thin rubber foot skivvies on pavement is asking for a glass shard to get stuck in your foot, or a bone bruise to happen from stepping on a rock. These just aren't issues when you wear a lightweight, semi-cushioned shoe (like a racing flat). Additionally, with good form, you could run in everything from big cushioned trainers to racing flats just fine. Elite athletes tend to do well in neutral trainers and flats. If barefoot on pavement was better, they'd be doing it.

Shoes help you go faster, there's no way around it. If barefoot was faster, Bolt wouldn't be wearing shoes. But don't take my word for it--try it yourself! Sprint all-out on pavement for 100m, barefoot, and time yourself. If you haven't given yourself bruised metatarsal heads yet, pop some flats on and do it again, and see how much faster you go. There is a minimal level of cushioning that is necessary for peak performance. However, on well-maintained grass, you can go just as fast barefoot as you can with shoes! (provided it's not WET grass...) I've done 10x1000m multiple times barefoot on grass, and it feels great. However, I'd never think of pulling anything like that on pavement. Why? To paraphrase a famous American...It's the cushioning, stupid!

777 wrote:

Really, barefoot shoes? Seems like that would be a contradictory statement, seeing as "barefoot" implies a lack of shoes. Running barefoot or in thin rubber foot skivvies on pavement is asking for a glass shard to get stuck in your foot, or a bone bruise to happen from stepping on a rock. These just aren't issues when you wear a lightweight, semi-cushioned shoe (like a racing flat). Additionally, with good form, you could run in everything from big cushioned trainers to racing flats just fine. Elite athletes tend to do well in neutral trainers and flats. If barefoot on pavement was better, they'd be doing it.

The last sentence may be true but it is a logical fallacy. There are two possible reasons that elites train the way they do: 1) It's the right way, or 2) It's the wrong way and they just haven't figured it out yet.

You can't be so quick to assume that because elites do something it is right.

Your I'm less likely to assume the elites are doing something wrong. They have their livelihood at stake after all.

Let's see... ALL the Eastern Block countries back in the day with all their sophisticated government backed research on training and mechanics (they pioneered plyometrics) had their athletes in some form of protection for their feet. Granted there were some exercises they did in minimalist type shoes.

The Elites train the way the do based on the research available to his or her coach. This done through personal or second hand experience, books, coaching seminars and clinics, coaching journals (Track Technique, Athletics Coach, Modern Athlete and Coach, Track and Field Journal, Soviet Sports Review, Legkaya Atletica, etc.); as well as various biomechanics and kinesiology labs.

As an aside, it's such a cop out to say what the elites do is driven by their shoe company sponsors. Nike for example made a lot of minimalist shoes back in the 80's: they had the Aquasock which is the forerunner to the Vibram 5 fingers, the Sock Racer, Waffle Racer cross country flat/spikeless spike. And they still have their very minimalistic spikeless spikes. The athletes do have a choice to go minimalist.

Back in the 80's I went to Bill Dellinger's Oregon Track camp, and remember seeing Alberto Salazar doing strides and drills in spikeless spikes. Also in the 90's Pattisue Plumer did actual barefoot strides as part of her training. So it's not like elite runners have no exposure to barefoot running or minimalism, or have some agenda against it, or their shoe sponsors "don't allow it".

Sometimes common sense comes into play. If I am running a hilly road race, there is no way I could run as fast downhill where I am forced to heel strike on an asphalt road with zero cushioning as I could with shoes (example: the downhill portion of the Hayes Street hill in the San Francisco Bay to Breakers).

777, you've got the wrong end of the stick here.Most barefoot shoes are designed so the sole of the shoes don't get split open by any sharp objects. I would be mad to run barefoot where i live! But the barefoot/minimum shoes make this possible. Also, how would you know if you are running in good form with cushioned shoes? You can't feel your feet on the ground. Running barefoot strenghens your feet too.You don't see many barefoot or minimal shoe athletes around, because they are sponsored by shoe companies. Why go barefoot when they could get paid for wearing somee branded shoes. Alot of athletes just go with the trend.

I don't think elites wear cushioned shoes because they get them for free. Technically they can also get flats from their sponsor for free as well. When you are running high volume at a high intensity minimalism/foot strength is just another to worry about. I don't have much info on what type of shoes most elites train in, but I think most just choose a comfortable shoe just like the rest of us. Anyone here know any elites (besides jaguar1) that train in flats or lightweight trainers exclusively?

ukathleticscoach wrote:

brown derby wrote:

Disagree. 17 years of almost 50-75 mpw in neutral, minimally cushioned racing flats, probably run on trails/off-road < 1-2% (once or twice a year).

Congrulations for the rest of us mere mortals slapping your feet on concrete does not do much good.

Is this is site a secret meeting place for annoying people? You remind me of those people who ask you how long ita takes to drive somewhere, then say say 4 hours they always say they have done it in half the time

I've been running over 70 mpw for about 4 years now in flats almost exclusively on the road without injury. I was only injured when I would wear cushioned trainers. Sorry to have had an experience contrary to yours.

Outside of Japan, very few now. But if you go back a generation or two people like Anne Audain, Jack Foster, Gordon Pirie, and some others did.

el chilar wrote:

Congrulations for the rest of us mere mortals slapping your feet on concrete does not do much good.

Is this is site a secret meeting place for annoying people? You remind me of those people who ask you how long ita takes to drive somewhere, then say say 4 hours they always say they have done it in half the time

I've been running over 70 mpw for about 4 years now in flats almost exclusively on the road without injury. I was only injured when I would wear cushioned trainers. Sorry to have had an experience contrary to yours.[/quote]

My experience agrees with yours. I've also never noticed any kind of difference from running on asphalt vs. concrete, other than the IT issues from running on crowned roads.

update: i just got a pair of asics gel ds trainers and i will slowly transition from there. thanks for all the help

Ho Hum and El Chilar my experience is in line with yours the exception being that I've been training primarily in flats for 25 years. That includes a 10 year stretch without ANY injuries. Before switching to flats I experienced at least 1 major injury every year.

I think UK Athletics Coach's definition of annoying is, "anyone who disagrees with UK Athletics Coach".

shoe guy wrote:

Anyone here know any elites (besides jaguar1) that train in flats or lightweight trainers exclusively?

Doesn't Gebrselassie train pretty much solely in the Adidas Adizero Adios? At least whenever you see pictures of him training he's in them.

Blowing.Rock Master wrote:

Ho Hum and El Chilar my experience is in line with yours the exception being that I've been training primarily in flats for 25 years. That includes a 10 year stretch without ANY injuries. Before switching to flats I experienced at least 1 major injury every year.

I think UK Athletics Coach's definition of annoying is, "anyone who disagrees with UK Athletics Coach".

Exactly! That and idiots helping young athletes get injured

Try minimalist boxing and see how your head and hands feel

Minimalsim should be running barefoot on grass or dirt - anything else is a crock - thats not to say get the heaviest shoes out there. As with most things the middle forund is where the anwer lies not some fad

Flats are ok on a soft surface - on concrete you will crock yourself unless luck - Even KB did his foot with flats in a race - do you thing he trains in racers - does he feck

wilfredo wrote:

ukathleticscoach . . . don't be a dick

Too late.

Does he? I honestly have no idea how KB trains - he's pretty secretive about it.

I just don't know why you think flats will ruin your feet on hard surfaces. You have multiple people telling you the opposite in this thread. Maybe it's a problem if you're heavy or have bad form, but for me at least training in flats has been helpful. Doesn't matter if you're running on roads, concrete, or trails. That's not to say that every kid should go out and start running in flats right now, but if they want to then more power to them.

switching from inspire to ds trainer didnt work for me. ds was too neutral compared to the inspire.

the mizuno elixir and then the mizuno musha is much better since they are similar to the inspire.

I've recently started doing my treadmill sessions (normally once or twice a week) in racing flats, just to get used to it.

So far no problems, but I can't say I've noticed that it's made any real difference.

I've been training primarily in the Brooks T6 this cycle. I trained primarily in the Brooks Launch last cycle. I trained primarily in the Glycerin 7 the cycle previous to that.

The Brooks T6 is not a flat, but it's low enough to the ground that you feel things as if it were a flat. Running on pavement in them is rough stuff, but I'm getting more accustomed to it. I initially did a few miles per week on road in them and the rest in grass. Due to bad weather I've had to do it almost all on road or treadmill this week. It's difficult, but possible because I've had some time to get used to it.

I used to think training in racers was like cheating; you were making things easier every day to score better workout times only to have less of a boost on race day when it counted. This is the thought you're raised with in America, because almost no parents or coaches stick their kids in racing shoes the day they join a team.

I'm glad I gave racing shoes a fair chance. I don't think I can ever go back to standard running trainers.

mizunoguy wrote:

switching from inspire to ds trainer didnt work for me. ds was too neutral compared to the inspire.

the mizuno elixir and then the mizuno musha is much better since they are similar to the inspire.

The ds trainers felt the best out of what i tried on at the store for a quick run on the treadmill. i tried on the elixer 4's and 5's, saucony tangents and the ds trainers. I haven't had a chance to go for a substantial run in them (they are considered a christmas present), but i will keep you posted on how they are. I do plan in switching off between the inspires and the ds trainers though

Ho Hum wrote:

Does he? I honestly have no idea how KB trains - he's pretty secretive about it.

I just don't know why you think flats will ruin your feet on hard surfaces. You have multiple people telling you the opposite in this thread. Maybe it's a problem if you're heavy or have bad form, but for me at least training in flats has been helpful. Doesn't matter if you're running on roads, concrete, or trails. That's not to say that every kid should go out and start running in flats right now, but if they want to then more power to them.

Why do you think they call them racers or training shoes - a survey of the jerks on here is hardly a comprehensive study

One last thing:

'I just don't know why you think flats will ruin your feet on hard surfaces'

Are you f***ing stupid (note the lack of a question mark), because there is not enough padding. Going bare foot makes more sense. If I put your head through the nearest wall, and trust me I would right now if you were here - would you rather be wearing some padding?

Have you ever trained with elite athletes or coaches? Its not just my experience I am quoting but the best there is. I've had the same converstion with similar idiots on who seem to think running on concrete is a good idea in the first place