Runners World Takes It To Ritz: "All the money in the world can't buy a faster marathon"

I don't think Dathan can "sit and kick" with the africans. The only chance is to run hard on a slow course, but he ran slow until 1st ave and got dropped. Probably still doesn't have the born talent to win these big races, but top 5 should always be open to someone as talented as Ritz.

Has Dathan put out a tweet yet? Even if he runs 2:07 someday on a pancake flat course, he's still better over 5k and at cross. He has provided absolutely zero evidence that he can run 2:07, though he's yet to even split a fast course either.

great post, okey dokey.

okey dokey then wrote:

Overall, this board has too many haters. The marathon is a finicky event and things don't always go as planned.

Trust me, he's at least a 2:07 marathoner, at the very least and maybe faster. It just hasn't happened yet.

Dude you hit the nail on the head...I swear I am a 2:07 marathoner it just hasn't happened!

Thank you and I am not saying I have the answer to end all answers, but if Dathan can lock on to 4:50ish in training, why not a race or for the love of God, why not try it?

Sadly, if it's too slow for the first half, he just won't have the leg turnover to maintain 3 very fast miles in the middle of a race, so any chance of victory is gone.

But....if the pace had been more honest up to that point, I don't think we would have seen 3 consecutive miles at sub 4:30 pace, as was reported.

Why Alberto, who did this himself, is not telling Dathan to do this is beyond me. Dathan doesn't have to lead or do anything suicidial, just an honest pace and see what's left in the tank with 10k to go, "regardless" of who else is in the race or where they are. If he gets there (20 or so) at that pace, then race!

Without putting it out there, I've had dozens of conversations with many top runners from Nick Rose to Lindsay to DeCastella to Rodgers to Pfeiffer to Sinclair, etc.... Pressure and nerves do play a role and someone mentioned that he should just run and not talk so much. Well, no one knows for sure, but there may be some truth to that. With technology the way it is in the 21st century, blogging and all of the stuff that goes with it puts added pressure on athletes and I think most people would agree that it can have a negative affect. I am happy to read about workouts and see videos, but predicting times over and over and over can amount to a do or die type situation after having not run up to your own standards, let alone others. When Bill Rodgers ran, you may have gotten a blip in RW a month or two before about the Virginia 10 miler before NY or the Cherry Blossom in DC before Boston, but not much more unless you lived in Boston. He just trained and ran and we saw the results.

I believe it has some role in Dathan's big race results and in Beijing, it was a positive. Think about it. Ryan Hall was the one with big expectations and most people thought he'd place higher. Dathan wasn't in the spotlight near as much, especially after Ryan's run at the trials and then London. Dathan did not have near the pressure on him that Ryan had, and Dathan finished ahead of Hall, as I'm sure was his plan.

Sorry, but based off his workouts, I truly believe Dathan needs to approach his marathon races differently and just do what he has trained to do and let the results speak for themselves. He's too good to do otherwise.

When you have Dathan's pr's, come talk to me. Seriously, you gotta feel pretty dumb with a post like that. Oh well.

Isn't it true to say that Ritz has always been an inconsistent runner?

I am sure there is some truth to that cabana, but the better question is why?

When he was in college and went after the 10,000 record, he locked on the pace and got it. The next day he won the 5000 for his college team. I watched his 12:56 5000 and before the announcer even said it, you could see him slowly creeping up runner by runner. Obviously, as an American who runs, I was focused on the American, no denying it and I wanted him to do well.

When they went through the first lap and he was in last, I was actually excited because I knew he was running fast, real fast, but the majority of the field was running too fast and he would surely catch a lot of them. He kept his cool and ran "his" race. In the 60 half marathon, he did the same thing.

Some races, you're right, he's finished where no one would expect. Why? Who knows. Was he trained properly (overtrained?), was he tapered, was he rested, was he racing through it, I don't know, but if I had the chance to ask him I would. He bombed in races that most would not have expected him too. Don't hold me to it, but I believe Greg Meyer ran 2:13ish at the 1981 Boston Marathon and I know as a fact that he won in 2:09 flat in 1983. Who can explain that? Yet Dathan runs a 2:10 flat and many people think he'll never break 2:09, which is just not true.

Again, regardless of the rude, spineless trolls that Weldon and Robert allow to surf this site, Dathan is a very capable runner and I'd bet the farm that he'll get it together. Will a 2:06 or a 2:07 be good enough for this board, probably not, but maybe it will be for him and it will shut up the majority of trolls who have nothing better to do.

Let's pretend for a moment that Salazar knows something about his athlete. Let's say that Ritz is capable of running a 2:07. The odds of it happening in a race with so many variables are extremely stacked against you... if you only run one race per year. If this guy is truly in that kind of shape, then racing a little more often is all it should take for him to have things go right and pop that 2:07.

As a fan, I'm a little tired of the Olympics-centric focus. I can't follow an athlete if he acts like what happens every 4 years is all that matters. I want to follow an athlete who regularly goes out there and shows us feats of human performance. This is like the Super Bowl in NFL where every team every year says their goal is to win the Super Bowl. The fans just want to watch them play (and preferably well). Doing well on the biggest stage is great, but there are more games to be had in the regular season and I for one would rather enjoy regular athletic entertainment on a high level than have to wait 4 years for a flash in the pan.

okey dokey then wrote:

Trust me, he's at least a 2:07 marathoner, at the very least and maybe faster. It just hasn't happened yet.

He will never break 2:10:00. He is getting older and is going to be getting any faster. He needs to stick with the 5 and 10.

I honestly think the only way the Americans are going to be able to truly run with the Africans is to change our lifestyle. What Africans have what the OTC have?

If you are fading at 22 miles, there's just no technology in the world that will save your butt.

It's been argued and opined here before, but it's just a life/cultural thing - these Africans are willing to leave their families for months at a time (Edna Kiplagat and her husband train here while their children are in Kenya) and focus solely on training.

How many interviews do they do? How many times do they fly to the course to "preview" it? Probably none.

Someone mentioned the Rocky metaphor - but seriously, when an American goes and hides out for months and just trains - I'm talking run, eat, sleep, repeat, just like the Africans do, that's when we can even start thinking of running with them for the Marathon distance.

But for the time being, I'm sure we'll continue hammering out "tempos" and I'm sure we'll continue on critiquing our form and taking our ice baths until we run that 2:05 marathon.

Just my 2 pennies.

craigmac4h wrote:

I've seen runners on here who trained "old school" and they got ripped for "not respecting their talent" (if they eat junk food, they don't care enough, if they run really high mileage, it's junk mileage, if they weren't fast in HS, they're not talented, will never win, and shouldn't keep running full-time, etc).

Now the runners who do everything they can to run fast get mocked for being supported and not "old school enough."

Can we admit that we're going to rip these guys no matter what? If Ritz moved to Boston to trudge through the snow and started racing every two weeks, would he be cool enough then?

<---What he said...

Graeme McDowell wrote:

This was his 5th marathon, generally athletes don't continue to improve in the marathon.

geb - 2:03:59

only me wrote:

And what were the times of Bill Rodgers first 5 marathons?

not sure but i think he did ok on his 6th.

For those like okey dokey saying the Olympic Marathon is a model of success for Ritz: Ritz openly stated that his Olympic performance was one of his biggest disappointments. He did not go into that race with no expectations and no pressure. Quite the opposite.

Ritz was cooked and slowing down after mile 20...same pattern as his previous marathons.

Mile 18

Gebre - 1:28:40 {4:32}

Ritz - 1:29:06 (+26) {4:46}

Bairu - 1:29:28 (+48) [+22] {4:57}

30k

Gebre - 1:31:38

Ritz - 1:32:15 (+37)

Bairu - 1:32:50 (+72) [+35]

Mile 19

Gebre - 1:33:15 {4:35}

Ritz - 1:34:02 (+26) {4:56}

Bairu - 1:34:41 (+48) [+22] {5:13}

Mile 20

Gebre - 1:38:05 {4:50}

Ritz - 1:39:08 (+63){5:06}

Bairu - 1:40:05 (+120) [+63] {5:24}

Mile 21

Gebre - 1:42:54 {4:49}

Ritz - 1:44:21 (+87) {5:13}

Bairu - 1:45:43 (+169) [+82] {5:38}

okey dokey then wrote:

...Dathan doesn't have to lead or do anything suicidial, just an honest pace and see what's left in the tank with 10k to go, "regardless" of who else is in the race or where they are. If he gets there (20 or so) at that pace, then race!

Has it not occurred to you, that such a strategy would quite likely put him as the race leader, early on, by default? Hall tried a similar, 'even effort' strategy in his first Boston last year, and ended up becoming a wind-block for the Africans that sat and waited while he did the heavy-lifting early on. I felt the Ethiopians took the surging up one level in that race, by using 'team tactics'. If you recall, Merga wasn't the first to lead the surges; it was his fellow countryman (that sat with him post-race) that was initially surging and confusing Cheriyot (who eventually dropped out), and Hall was hanging with Cheriyot, deferring to his experience, until it was too late to catch Merga's break-away. (But we know how the Kenyans countered the Ethopians at Boston this year. Cheriyot-the-younger just 'threw-down' hard to-the-tape, in an astonishing performance.)

let's think it through... wrote:

Has it not occurred to you, that such a strategy would quite likely put him as the race leader, early on, by default? Hall tried a similar, 'even effort' strategy in his first Boston last year, and ended up becoming a wind-block for the Africans that sat and waited while he did the heavy-lifting early on.

Yeah, but who cares if he's blocking the wind? Here's the quote from Salazar: "Three weeks ago he did a 20-mile run at like 4:51.8 pace, which is about 2:07 marathon pace. He was going hard, but not a race effort by any means, and he wasn't tapered."

If he's already accustomed to running 4:52 pace on his own in a controlled effort, just do that in the race itself. We know he can get to 20 miles. At that point he can look around and latch on to someone for the last 10k if that tempo run truly was "not a race effort by any means, and he wasn't tapered".

The pack was together through 16 miles. Here's the difference in splits the last 10 miles.

Gebrmar . . Mutai . . Kwambai . . Keflezi . . Ritzenh

FINISH . . . 4:53 . . . 4:56 . . . 5:01 . . . 5:01 . . . 5:03

Average paces for each half:

1st HALF . . . 4:59 . . . 4:59 . . . 4:59 . . . 4:59 . . . 4:59

2nd HALF . . . 4:48 . . . 4:53 . . . 5:03 . . . 5:04 . . . 5:08

Average paces for each 5K:

05 km . . . 5:18 . . . 5:17 . . . 5:18 . . . 5:17 . . . 5:18

10 km . . . 5:02 . . . 5:02 . . . 5:02 . . . 5:02 . . . 5:02

15 km . . . 4:47 . . . 4:48 . . . 4:47 . . . 4:48 . . . 4:47

20 km . . . 4:55 . . . 4:55 . . . 4:55 . . . 4:55 . . . 4:55

25 km . . . 4:59 . . . 4:59 . . . 4:58 . . . 4:59 . . . 4:59

30 km . . . 4:32 . . . 4:33 . . . 4:33 . . . 4:45 . . . 4:44

35 km . . . 4:48 . . . 4:48 . . . 4:50 . . . 5:08 . . . 5:10

40 km . . . 4:57 . . . 4:59 . . . 5:15 . . . 5:14 . . . 5:21

Splits per mile:

Mile 17 . . . 4:26 . . . 4:27 . . . 4:30 . . . 4:37 . . . 4:38

Mile 18 . . . 4:32 . . . 4:32 . . . 4:29 . . . 4:47 . . . 4:46

Mile 19 . . . 4:35 . . . 4:35 . . . 4:34 . . . 4:55 . . . 4:56

Mile 20 . . . 4:50 . . . 4:50 . . . 4:51 . . . 5:06 . . . 5:06

Mile 21 . . . 4:49 . . . 4:49 . . . 4:52 . . . 5:09 . . . 5:13

Mile 22 . . . 4:26 . . . 4:26 . . . 4:47 . . . 5:08 . . . 5:08

Mile 23 . . . 5:11 . . . 5:11 . . . 4:52 . . . 5:09 . . . 5:13

Mile 24 . . . 5:14 . . . 5:14 . . . 5:29 . . . 5:26 . . . 5:34

Mile 25 . . . 4:50 . . . 4:58 . . . 5:38 . . . 5:10 . . . 5:25

Mile 26 . . . 4:37 . . . 5:19 . . . 6:22 . . . 5:19 . . . 5:37