19:19 wrote:
tell that to Jim Ryun, he ran his first 800 in 2:55 as a 10th grader.
Actually he ran something like a 5:35 mile in one of his first few cross country practices in 10th grade (he ran the 400 in track the Spring before that). By the time track season started he was running in the 4:30s and finished the year at 4:07. That's what I remember from "Jim Ryun Story" anyway.
No. Genetics may be the biggest factor in your potential but not your ability.
Maybe that depends on your definition of ability.
I see ability as something you are able to do right now.
And potential as something you could do if you prepared for it.
Genetics is a big piece, but I don't know how you could actually measure the contributing factors to come up with a definitive answer.
Jack Daniels groups the factors contributing to success or failure into
-Inherent ability (genetics)
-Motivation
-Opportunity (availability of places and times to run, etc.)
-Direction (good training or bad training)
I think this is a pretty good summary, but if you take a particular runner in a particular race, I don't know how it's possible to measure or compare the influence of these different factors in a meaningful way.
Did Meb win New York last year because of genetics? (yes) Motivation? (yes) Opportunity? (yes) Direction? (yes) But how can you accurately give each factor a value and compare it to the other factors?
My coach in 7th grade said genetics was the most important factor the first day we worked out.
He then said you cannot control your genetics but you can work as hard as you can to get the most of what you got and that will get you far and often ahead of people with more natural talent for the sport who don't develop the natural talent.
The water will not boil is itself. Someone has to apply the heat!
"genetics" in terms of having a high (potential) Vo2max.....I'd put that up as #1 in ability to race 1500m-half marathon events. But of course you are going to have to have the desire to train.
Then you could look at muscle fiber ratios, overall strength and durability of the running muscles.....the number and size (potential growth) of mitochondria and the adaptation of fast oxidate fibers (fast twitch to have more slow twitch properties).
Finally, potential in improving running economy..... related to hardwired good form improved from years of running, the previous mentioned physical adaptations, body mass and oxygen carrying capacity in the blood.
What people don't understand is that good genetics doesn't mean that you show up and you run some incredible time. Genetics come into response to training (some people do 100mpw and vo2max goes up 80% other do 100mpw and only get 40%) and recovery (if you can do 4 workouts per week, you are likely to get better than the guy that can only do 2).
rocknrollrunner wrote:
19:19 wrote:tell that to Jim Ryun, he ran his first 800 in 2:55 as a 10th grader.
Actually he ran something like a 5:35 mile in one of his first few cross country practices in 10th grade (he ran the 400 in track the Spring before that). By the time track season started he was running in the 4:30s and finished the year at 4:07. That's what I remember from "Jim Ryun Story" anyway.
Most people dont try hard enough or believe in themselves enough. Many East Africans are raised in an environment that forces them to "will themselves" to fast times. If you put many Americans in the same environment you will get the same results.
Who wants it bad enough!!
How about your build? Seems to me East Africans and Euros are simply not put together the same way. Im talking about the ectomorphic, slim calves, flat feet, super straight bones E.A.s seem to generally have? I would put that way up there because it lends its self to biomechanical efficiency
asdfasdfasdasdfasdfasdfa wrote:
What people don't understand is that good genetics doesn't mean that you show up and you run some incredible time. Genetics come into response to training (some people do 100mpw and vo2max goes up 80% other do 100mpw and only get 40%) and recovery (if you can do 4 workouts per week, you are likely to get better than the guy that can only do 2).
This guy is has it right. sure, sometimes genetics or "talent" means you show up and immediately run fast off of little training. But a much more, and still genetically determined, important natural ability to have is to be able to respond strongly to the training stimulus. Training is a stress/stimulus. One either keeps getting stronger from increasing stimulus, or they breakdown or plateau and don't keep improving. Being able to absorb and continually get stronger from increased training stimulus is the most important ability a runner can have. and yes, this is mostly genetically determined (though of course one can do certain things to maximize one's ability to absorb, recover from, and get stronger from an increased training load. But there is only so much one can do about that).
Look at Solinksy. Of course he was pretty good from the get go, but what sets him apart from 99.9999% of runners is that as he has continually upped his volume and/or intensity gradually over the years, he doesn't get hurt, and keeps responding positively to it. he chews it up, spits it out, and comes back stronger for more.
Jim Ryun immediately started getting very strong from more and harder training, and KEPT getting stronger. This showed he was gifted. It is the most important gift to have. Most of us get hurt or hit a plateau fairly easily from increased training stimulus beyond a certain point.
Isn't it true that for identical twin runners that train together, usually one is better?
19:19 wrote:
tell that to Jim Ryun, he ran his first 800 in 2:55 as a 10th grader.
As Jim tells it later, he had to defecate really, really, really badly and was too shy to ask the coach for a "time out," so he gutted out the 2:55 try to keep the turtle head from escaping...
I agree with the genetics conclusion, but more specifically, it is the genetic traits that controls how the body reacts to training. Two people starting out at the same level, doing the same workouts, don't end up the same. Some adapt to the training stimulus, fully recover, and get better; while others don't adapt much, don't recover, and usually get hurt.
Interesting, considering he also ran a 4:06 mile in 10th grade. I wish I had the type of endurance to make me faster the longer the race got.
19:19 wrote:
tell that to Jim Ryun, he ran his first 800 in 2:55 as a 10th grader.
Wheaties and beer, real beer.
genetically cursed wrote:
I agree with the genetics conclusion, but more specifically, it is the genetic traits that controls how the body reacts to training. Two people starting out at the same level, doing the same workouts, don't end up the same. Some adapt to the training stimulus, fully recover, and get better; while others don't adapt much, don't recover, and usually get hurt.
This is the best reasoning I've heard so far. There seem to be two "areas" pertaining to genetics. One, we will call the Present, is the physical makeup you're born with. Two, we will call the Future, is what your body is capable of adapting into. One is measurable, the other isn't. You can take a person, measure what the have right now, but we don't have any way of calculating how far their body is able to adapt through training.
So East Africans should be just as good in Super Heavyweight Power Lifting, because they simply will themselves to lifting more weight? ... yet there are ZERO East Africans among the top 50 "all time" power lifters ... how could this be?
noord wrote:
Most people dont try hard enough or believe in themselves enough. Many East Africans are raised in an environment that forces them to "will themselves" to fast times. If you put many Americans in the same environment you will get the same results.
Who wants it bad enough!!
Everybody carries on about how the Kenyans train and how we need to copy everything they do. Some people even eat ugali, possibly the most nutritionally devoid food on the planet, thinking it will make them fast. Give me a f***ing break you asshats. The Africans are dominant because their top athletes are genetically superior to the top representatives of all other races. Their training is probably worse, not better, than that of Westerners.
dude nobody gives a flying f*** about your opinion, nobody asked "The OP whats your opinion?" so just go back to your gay porn site and get off of letsrun, because you obviously don't know shit!
The water will not boil is itself. Someone has to apply the heat!
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Not only does this discussion need to end with this quote, but if it's from whom I think it's from, then you'll find no better insight any further anyway.