Lack of 10k success in the 70's

Dirt,Get yourself to the infirmery,and have the nurse check you for a fever.Youre delerious.

I am laughing hard dirt. You got some balls to stand up to the oldtimers, but you can't win. What most people do is when hodgie or malmo post we just act like we agree and then walk away laughing under our breath. Your grandpa analogy is a great one. When my grandfather would talk to me about pre marital sex and how wrong it was I would always act like I agreed and just nod my head. This is how you should respond to the old timers. Just nod your head and show the proper respect even if they are clueless.

Dirt (aka Swoosh, Skippy Shitulski, Get a clue), changing your handle doesn't hide your identity in cyberspace. Go pop some pimples or something.

Dirt wrote:

You and Hodge can't stand the fact that things are on an upswing, it makes you feel less important. You guys have a hard time even admitting that they are on an upswing.

Use the search function and review some of their posts. They are almost too supportive of the current crop of runners and do say good job. The quoted statements are laughable. The other funny thing is, those 12 guys probably know that they couldn't carry Meyer's jockstrap and would probably admit it. If any of them tried that 124 mile week before a race, they would be lucky to make it to the start line let alone break 31 minutes for 10km.

Dirt wrote:

I am sure that the oldtimers who like to tell us how much better things were back in the day will have an excuse for this one but lets have at it. (I am talking to you Mr. Hodge).

Isn't it astounding that 7 americans ran faster this past weekend than the then US record.

No not astounding. That is impressive though & good to see.

The major difference is the influx of Kenyans not athletes unwilling to invest.

Not entirely, it would be nice to see this group at Falmouth or Peachtree competing against the Kenyans etc. & not themselves only.

.. for the board but I don't know how to do that .. so ..

I'm an old guy (what's the criteria for that?) and can only (and hardly) speak for the west cost stuff in 'early 70s' (pretty much exclusively so cal). And have no axe to grind either - re: back in the day vs current situation.

So here's my take: there were very, very few road races then and the one's that took place usually had 100 guys or less running. I remember being amazed at Bay to Breakers numbers - about 4-5k back then - and it was biggest thing around. We rarely had what I would call top tier guys nationally, much less top guys in our neck of the woods. It was pretty much a brand new 'idea'. - road races. In fact quite a few coaches/runners were sceptical about how they might effect track and to a lesser degree xc.

I do remember some of the 'names' running in a few races i.e., Ron Larrieu, Tracy Smith, Bob Day, some of Igloi's guys, and a handful of So Cal/local guys you prob never heard of, and another handful (or more) I can't remember now .. Occasionally we would get national names racing as they were visiting the area. Usually a workout for them. And very rarely any 'numbers' involved - of top guys. Larrieu was one of the very few who seemed a running junkie. IT WASN'T a priority by almost everyone - in So Cal, in the very early 70s - just didn't take it too seriously.

Publicity/pre race announcment for road races was virtually / almost word of mouth and often announced at the races. There was not even an effrective network of shoe/running stores to help that. Even at that there weren't all that many guys running the roads (races) anyway. The latter part of the 70s saw that pretty amazing running boom - across the demographic board. Off the top of my head '74 was sort breakthrough year for HS guys, in mile and 2 mile. Training 'philosophy' was shifting gears fairly rapidly.

That being said - I do think there were a number of things happening - both in participation AND guys being better prepared. Previosuly mentioned training philolsophy shift (Lydiard visited So Cal, Igloi was quite big, Tabori, Pat Cannelly's group was making noise - and we only read about the east caost groups - but I remember Jumbo Elliot was respected by the west coast guys), and many were experimenting with combinations of this, and LSD (was multi-defined). My take on that was that the dust hadn't settled on just how to best to this running deal. But at least there was more to choose from.

I don't remember the animus back then but we didn't have the computer/internet either. I spose the same thing would have happen 'back in the day' ... people are people. Maybe 'familiarity breeds ..' I do remember quite a few nemeses during the season getting together in off-season to train etc. That happen today? - hope so. I don't know too many 'old guys' who engage in the us v them. Maybe I'm wrong. I do know some old guys (accomplished by any [American] standard) who get excited for the current generation of runners - and want them to excel AND do free coaching and and and ...

But going back to the "Hey what about the 70s 10ks - "and don't make excuses" - Looks like the roads are faster - I say great. Track is ... well I think the jury is out ... but this group is closing/passing that deal too> I say great. I hope we see sub 27s and sub 13s. Big time.

That was the early 70s - I was 'retired' in 73. Maybe thats another thing - not too many guys running beyond college - a few but not too many.

One of things I liked about running is (for the most part) the clock doesn't lie .. on the track anyway. So 'do it' and don't look back.

Now, back in the day ....

Hey, I love Boston Billy. But I don't think he won World Cross. I could be wrong, but I think he was third at best.

And even that's not really very good. I'd say World Cross back then was about what the Ivy League Championships is these days. Tom McCardle 28:18, Boston Billy about 28:30.

What I find interesting about all these old timers is how skewed their road race results are. Look at the PRs of guys like Hodge-podge and Curious George Malmo:

Malmo runs 8:2X for the steeple, about 29:30 for 10k, then somehow runs a half-marathon in 1:01, a marathon in what, 2:11?

Hodge, runs about 14:15 for 5,000m, 30 flat for 10k and boom 2:10!

Now look at the PRs of guys like Meb, Culpepper, and Todd Williams:

Meb runs 13:13, 27:13 and about 2:12 (admittedly, his debut).

Culpepper 27:30, 2:10.

TWill 27:30, 42:30 15k, 2:10.

Don't give me that bull about training specifically for the marathon. Or waiting until they're too old. These guys train just as hard, just as many miles as the old schoolers.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the courses prior to mid-1980s were SHORT.

Don't believe the apocrypha. The one-legged mailman from Greater Boston may have run 2:13 (for what, 24 miles?) but he was not as good a marathoner as Meb, Rod Dehaven, or probably even Deena Drossin for that matter.

[quote]Bob Roll wrote:

Hey, I love Boston Billy. But I don't think he won World Cross. I could be wrong, but I think he was third at best.

Right. My bad.

[quote]Bob Roll wrote:

Don't give me that bull about training specifically for the marathon. Or waiting until they're too old. These guys train just as hard, just as many miles as the old schoolers.

Wrong. Look again at Meyer's log. I don't think he was training for the 10,000.

Actually, I talked to Meb in late Summer and he said that he was running around 100m/wk and was going to work up to a couple of weeks at 125m/wk, but that he had never run that much mileage before. From what I know he has run in the 90m/wk range for a number of years with some very high quality track work, but hasn't run the big miles base yet. His marathon debut performance of getting out really well to about 20-21 and then hitting the wall is consistent with the above-described training pattern. We probably all agree that Meb has more talent than most of the earlier guys, but he hasn't yet laid down the same kind of base that the 70s and 80s guys did.

7619

Franklin Park record broken:

U Lowell runner Bob Hodge had his Franklin Park record(23:18)broken yesterday.John Treacy of Providence College,established the new record(23:06)In leading his team to the 64th annual New England championships.Hodge set up yesterdays record run by blazing an opening 4:21 mile that set the stage for Treacy.Other top finishers were,

2)Mike Quinn U MASS 23:13

3)John Flora N.U. 23:15

4)Mike O'Shea Prov. 23:26

5)Bob Hodge Lowell 23:32

6)Bruce Bickford N.U.23:43

This was from Boston Globe sports page Nov.1976

Hodge could definetely run a great range of events not just marathons.That guy in 6th plce was #1 in the world in the 10000 in 84 or 85.Treacy won an olympic silver,and 2 world X-Country champs.O'Shea was an olympian as well.

Culpepper faster then Rodgers, not, Rodgers ran 2:09:28 at Boston on a much harder course then what Culpper ran. Question?: How many guys this year will run as fast or faster then Shorter's 2:10:30 from 30 years ago this coming Dec 1972, maybe 2, that includes KK? Look at the #'s of qualifiers for the 1984 OTrial marathon, well over 200+ guys under the qualifing standard. AlSal ran a converted time of 2:08:41 from a short NYC (2:08:13) back in 1981, only one guy has run faster, KK.

The 10k has much less volume in terms of guys who ran fast ending in the years of Nenow, 1986. Look it up. Only Meb has run faster then even Craig Virgin did in like 79 & 80. Pre still hangs on in tenth place all-time with a 27:43 from 1974. How many guys have past that time since 1974, only 9 in nearly a full 28 years. Didn't Meyer run like sub 28 (27:47??) at W&M invite one year? How many of those guys that ran last weekend have a sub 28 & a 2:09flat PR to rest on at this point? I thought so, zero.

Steve Scott's 3:47 mile is still #1 after what almost 20 years? Even a miler like Scott ran some place in the mid 28's in a road 10K once, as a workout.

When these Old-School times were turned we were competitive on the world level. I will agree we are close/better in some regard to the past but we are no longer close to the rest of the world. Get moving.

Bill Rodgers ran 28:04 @ 76 OTrials 4th place in what his only real try at the distance on the track.

Tom McCardle 28:18 close but not yet.

jozast wrote:

Bill Rodgers ran 28:04 @ 76 OTrials 4th place in what his only real try at the distance on the track.

Tom McCardle 28:18 close but not yet.

...and he probably ran through it. Tracks were probably shorter then however.

Bob Roll wrote:

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the courses prior to mid-1980s were SHORT.

Don't believe the apocrypha. The one-legged mailman from Greater Boston may have run 2:13 (for what, 24 miles?) but he was not as good a marathoner as Meb, Rod Dehaven, or probably even Deena Drossin for that matter.

Quite the wit. Look at the article below on the main board. Adcocks probably ran on a short course too. Oh gee, it's the same one. Well, just think if he had to run against today's competition. Oh gee, he did and beat them by 7 minutes. Korir doesn't believe it happened. He's probably right. Just like Roll.

ATHENS RECORD GROWS AS TIME ELAPSES

from the Race PR team

It was no surprise that Kenyans should take the top five places in the 20th Athens Classic Marathon on Sunday, but even by their own admission, they were shocked to be so far away from the course record of 2hr 11min 07sec, set by Briton Bill Adcocks back in 1969. Mark Saina, who won his first marathon in eight starts, in 2.18.20 said, "It's the toughest course I've ever run, and there was a headwind, but I think we started too fast".

John Moiben, second in 2.18,45, concurred, and Elijah Korir, who was third in 2.18.56 said of Adcocks' time, "I just don't know how he ran that, I don't believe it. Maybe if we hadn't run so fast at the start (5k in 14.48), it would have been better, but going downhill in the second part is just as difficult after all the uphill, it would be better if the second half was flat".

So the bad news for those intending to run this course in the Olympic Games in 2004 is that it's probably the toughest course in the world among the big city marathons, but good news for Adcocks, who was invited back to Athens this week by new sponsor, Alpha Bank.

Adcocks, 60 said, "That was my day of days, I only ran 19 seconds slower than my personal best, set on a completely flat course at Fukuoka (Japan), I had the impression on that day, I could have run up a mountain".

Winner Saina only started running seriously four years ago, at the age of 28, when he realised that he could keep up in training with a colleague at Kenyatta University in Nairobi, Bernard Lagat, who is an Olympic bronze medallist in the 1500 metres. "I'd run at school, but I was concentrating on my (sociology) studies, then I realised I could be a professional runner, but I preferred the marathon".

Sonja Oberem of Germany also preferred the marathon to the triathlon, at which she was twice world and twice European senior champion. The German retained her women's title in 2.37.29.

Dirt,

Think about enrolling in a statistics class at the JC you are enrolled at. Malmo and Hodge have been consistently right about the depth issue. More athletes were in the 28:00 - 29:00 range twenty years ago. You are basing your entire argument on outliers and one national championship race. Yes, a few athletes have posted better times than the previous generation. Rodgers, Meyer, etc. all raced week in and week out to scrape together a meager living. They were not pampered athletes with guaranteed money and gear who "selectively" raced about six times a year. Hell, if BR got $250,000 a year back in the day, he could have skipped the New Hampshire Squirrel Fest 10K to focus on running 2:07 in Boston.

Like all generational comparisons, your's will be judged on what it does. Honestly, we are hungry for a winner but we have become cynical while waiting for the next great American runner to arrive.

Bob,

You must have ROLLed a big Bob Marley one today. World XC 1975 with Ian Stewart, Mriano Haro, BR (3rd) and John Walker

4th like the Ivy frigggin league today?

Your way off on those PR's as well. Sleep it off.

Hey, no one,

thanks, I like that.

No prize money!! Bill Rodgers would be doing speaking appearances at a "pre-race" clinic for a few scant dollars....he ran 29:30-28:30 almost weekly, as did alot of guys. And it was ALOT of guys. Meyer,Rodgers,Lindsey,Sinclair,Hunt,Bickford,Bjorkland,Durden, Virgin,Fox....even guys like Coppess,Heffner, Jon Anderson, Sandoval,Tabb, Wells, Hodgie. This is a PARTIAL list of guys running 2:10 and 28 Low on a CONSISTANT basis, for very little financial reward as compared to today. I've been around for a while, and there has not been such a glut of consistant runners since that era. I applaude all of the current young crop and wish for nothing but continued growth and success, but don't fool yourself dirt. Your dead wrong on this and too young and stubborn to see it.

Clueless on AOL wrote:

Dirt (aka Swoosh, Skippy Shitulski, Get a clue), changing your handle doesn't hide your identity in cyberspace. Go pop some pimples or something.

Leave me out of this. I think Dirt and the gang are a bunch of idiots.