kermit the neuron wrote:
Surprised no one has suggested that he would hit the wall if he went out like Pre.
Oh, well.
Been spending too much time on facebook lately I guess, as my first instinct was to "like" this post. In more appropriate fashion, POD.
Sounds like your typical Letsrunner. So, your teammate is proving his manliness (which seems to roughly correspond with stupidity). So what?
cgrunner007 wrote:
Pre had the option of burning it from the start because he was top in the field and new it was going to hurt if people wanted to go wire to wire with him. A 17:50 runner going out in 5 against a group of runners who are more than a minute better than him won't really prove anything, and i am sure he could help the team more if he went out in 5:40 and maybe worked his way down, pick off some other runners so he could run 17:20ish and finish higher.
You obviously didn't read a thing I wrote, I know plenty of runners that can't perform negative splits and do a sub 16:30 but can burn themselves out in the first mile and run a 17 flat everytime.
the misconceptions about Pre on this forum are ridiculous. Did you watch his Olympic 5k? He doesn't go out and try to blast away from the field in the first 400. This whole idea that Pre ran from the front in every race is ludicrous.
If you actually watch Pre races and Pre movies, you and your teammate will understand that Pre used his racing saavy, his tactics, and his big nuts to put himself in the best position he could to win every race.
Your teammate isn't running like Pre when he goes out hard, he's running like a jackass.
Then those people are morons. It is undeniable that running big positive splits in a 5k is inefficient. For everyone. There is no special difference in physiology that makes running 5:00, 5:30, 5:40 a smart way to run a 17:50 5k for ANYONE. EVER.
^ especially because that adds up to 16:10...
sounds more like 5:00, 5:50, 7:00...
Tell him they don't hand out the medals at the one mile mark
my advice wrote:
the misconceptions about Pre on this forum are ridiculous. Did you watch his Olympic 5k? He doesn't go out and try to blast away from the field in the first 400. This whole idea that Pre ran from the front in every race is ludicrous.
If you actually watch Pre races and Pre movies, you and your teammate will understand that Pre used his racing saavy, his tactics, and his big nuts to put himself in the best position he could to win every race.
Your teammate isn't running like Pre when he goes out hard, he's running like a jackass.
He lost that though. The Pre fanatics are certain that he only missed out on the Olympic gold because he decided to 'sacrifice the gift' in the Olympic final and not go gun to tape.
chicken shet wrote:
Some people like to go for the win every time they step on the track.
Sure, he'll probably end up running no better in the end, but at least he's TRYING to put himself in the race. I have no respect for people that sit back and lose long races in the first lap.
I guarantee that he is running worse in the end. Props to him for trying, but he would run a lot faster if he went out in 5:20 or so. 5:00 is way too fast for a 17:50 5k.
I would talk some sense into this guy. He is hurting your team because he would finish a lot higher if he started off sensibly. If I were his coach, I would chew his ass.
o.O wrote:
He runs 17:50 which is reasonable enough
Maybe he can't run a 17:50 without busting a fast first mile, I don't see why everyone thinks that reasonable pacing works for everyone. Pre obviously couldn't do it why should other people conform to it?
The fact that he can run 5 flat in the mile at all suggests that he should be able to run much faster than 17:50.
Some of you don't seem to understand the difference between a track race with a handful of other guys and an XC race with hundreds of other runners. On the track, it makes sense to go out hard to force people to make a choice of whether or not to go with you. If they go with you, you can try to grind them down. If they decide to let you go with the hope that you'll come back to them, you have a chance to run away with it. When you're racing against a dozen other guys and you are one of the best in the field, you have some influence over how the race plays out.
In an XC race with hundreds of other people when you're not one of the top runners, going out hard does not have any impact on the rest of the field. If you go out in 5 flat, you aren't forcing the top guys to push the pace because the top guys are running faster than that anyway. You aren't forcing the field of 300 guys to go with you so that you can grind them down. You're just running a harder pace than you can handle all by yourself.
haha only on letsrun will people be so determined to disagree with the OP that they'd support such a ridiculous approach.
Are you tool boxes racing at USC Upstate this weekend because I'll kick your team mates ass back to 1999....suckass!
knowing people like him, not only does he start out in 5 flat but it's probably a 2:18/2:42 split
seriously, there's nothing wrong with wanting to win, but you have to take it one step at a time. so you ran 17:50 last race on crappy pacing, start out in 5:30 and try to run 17:20 or so. when you're actually within 2 minutes of winning you can start thinking about it.
If pre did what this kid did he would go out sub four for the first mile and end up at about 15 min 3 mile.
Not sure he would have had a legacy then.
He did not not run wussy first miles and then kick he ran fast even pace races.
he sounds like a high school kid dreamer who saw Without Limits once just last wkend or something and is hooked. not making fun or knocking the kid, it's good he has motivation/guts, but once he gets more experience running and racing, he may want to go out in 5:20 and try to break 17 instead of going out recklessly.
I mean even Prefontaine didn't run the first 400m of a race absolutely all-out. if he did, he'd be slumped over after 400m-800m, collapsing on the XC course, and he'd get trampled even though he was ~15-20secs ahead of the leaders a couple minutes into the race.
It's great ot have that competitive all-out guts atitude like Pre did, but that doesnt mean racing like a complete idiot. There's a difference. Pre had excellent fitness (high VO2 max of 84ish)just like other elites, maybe his edge mentally meant he could beat all the others at his fitness but it doesnt take away from the fact that his VO2 was 84 or so, in the elite category
duckshirt wrote:
^ especially because that adds up to 16:10...
sounds more like 5:00, 5:50, 7:00...
I thought that too, because when I first broke 17 thats the exact way I did it.
Nothing is different physiologically, its mental, Calling him a moron because he runs a race better when he goes out hard instead of pacing himself to 5:40s. Mostly because he has probably tried to go out in a 5:40 first mile, then came up with another 6 minute second mile and 6 minute 3rd mile and thats a 17:40 for 3 miles, add 10-15 seconds for that .11 and you've got a slower runner than the 5,6, 6:40 guy
o.O wrote:
add 10-15 seconds for that .11
Sounds like this kid must have one hell of a kick! 177 meters in 10-15 seconds is pretty quick.
but NOBODY runs better starting out 30 seconds faster than they need to. and if they do, they need to work on relaxing for the first mile, rather than just sticking with their bad habbits
what does any of this have to do with pre? i don't recall pre starting out 5k's as fast as he can. As far as i know, he never hit 3:59 for the first mile
Well, I agree with:
Tell him they don't hand out the medals at the one mile mark
I coached HS distance years ago. I used to say that and that they don't take the places at the mile mark. I also trained them in intervals to do negative splits. Carefully choosing goal times for them. They were allowed to go faster and faster during the workout if they started at the pace I set for them. Too quick at the start and I would send them to the showers.
In the Frosh Soph final, my runner from Menlo Atherton HS went out on the pace we had picked. The others rushed out, and at one point my runner was down nearly 200m. He caught the first place runner with a lap to go and, despite not being a known kicker, won the race, 2 miles, in a PR time. He got the place we had hoped at two miles, not at the one mile mark. My other line--run smart, not necessarily hard.
As for Pre, the famous race at the start is worth noting. The HS coach turns to the UO visiting coach and says oh, you'll know which one he is. The point was not that he went out fast, but that he was that much better than all the others. Brave, and better. And on pace for his talent level Which is why we applaud him so many years later.