Anyone want to help a slowpoke?

Yo man, I recognize you're making a broader point here and maybe venting or something, but this guy is an age-grouper trying to get down his 5K down under 18min. He's posting on a running board to see if anyone has ideas on some speed workouts that move him towards his goal. It's one of the more reasonable on topic posts you'll see here all week.

I'm not sure what your problem is with his request. Additionally, I'd like to see what malmo is going to steer him towards to supplement his training.

Not venting, just making some points about getting track and field to be more professional and worthy of respect. And yes, the comment about not willing or offering to pay is what got me going...

Cowboy Bob wrote:

Not venting, just making some points about getting track and field to be more professional and worthy of respect. And yes, the comment about not willing or offering to pay is what got me going...

My apologies for the without pay comment. It was meant to be a tongue in cheek and not so overt, but I can understand how it might get someone going.

As the poster above noted, I'm just an age group guy looking to shave 1:30 off my 5K time. There's nothing in that for me financially, but if there was, I'd be happy to share it with anyone who helped.

I am surprised that you feel so strogly about this issue in my circumstance...aren't recreational sports (baseball, football, hockey, soccer) full of coaches who volunteer their time and effort? Granted, they may be doing it for kids, but let's face it, I'm really no faster than a decent 13 your old!

Cowboy Bob wrote:

It keeps the good coaches around the country from earning a decent living. So why continue to encourage such behavior.

Oh come on. How long have you been in the sport?

Advice has always been freely sought by younger runners and freely given by older ones - whether at the trackside or on club runs, or more recently on the internet.

If you're done competing and want to coach for love of the sport, as a hobby, you're a hero for giving something back. If people with the caliber of Malmo give their time most days to direct and enlighten people online, likewise. That's what sport should be about.

Cowboy Bob, do people really earn a living from charging ordinary runners for 'personal running coaching services' in the US?

Take 6-12 months and build up your miles. I was a 17 minutes 5K runner on 40 mpw. I took a year and went all the up to 70 mpw average. Then I improved all the way down to the mid to high 15's.

Your present miles are OK but all the speedwork and tempo runs aren't going to get you there like running more miles.

Don't get lured into the marathon. Stay with the shorter races. Keep one hard day a week all during your build up. That can be a race or something else BUT FOCUS ON JUST RUNNING MORE DAY TO DAY, WEEK TO WEEK AND MONTH TO MONTH.

The guy says he's been running 50-60 mile weeks. I'd think that's plenty to be able to dip under 18min. He may need a few more months at it, but the speed workouts (on top of the miles) ought to get him there. The guy needs some footspeed.

Tues: 6x400, 3x600, 3min rest b/t intervals. They should be run fast but controlled. The point of this workout is turnover. Your ending 600s should be at the same pace of your 400s. As this workout grows easier, reduce the rest to 2min, then 90sec

Thurs: 3x1000, 2x1200, w/ 2min rest. Again fast but controlled but still quicker than current 5k pace. The point of this workout is getting comfortable with pace and strengthening your lactic threshold. The 1200s should be at the same pace as the 1000s. As this workout grows easier reduce the rest to 60sec. Change it up now and then with 3x1200, 2x1600, or 5x1600.

Ok, those with better workout knowledge can now revise this suggestion or point out areas I'm overlooking.

The one thing I would add is to work on your speed (not sprinting speed but your speed over 800m/mile)

A lot of the college runners on here have good natural speed so if they rack up the miles they will get good results

For the rest of us it can be a bit more difficult. So don't just do long reps, do some workouts with shorter reps as well. Doing hill reps is also good for your stength and so also improve your speed

It would be ideal if you could do some mile races. Just to get used to running at a faster pace. If you are currently running on your own try and get other runners to do your reps with. Your times should come down if you start training with a group

This has been touched on but I'm kind of surprised it hasn't been stressed. Your first goal is to get under - or at least close to 5 - for a mile. If you can't do that, you can run 100 mpw and/or tempos or run intervals til you're blue in the face and it won't matter. Forget you're a 5k runner for six months. Train for a 5 minute mile. When you can do that, you can probably run a 17:30 then and there; if not, take a couple months to return to 5k training and you're all set.

Thomas Crowne: Your first goal is to get under - or at least close to 5 - for a mile. If you can't do that, you can run 100 mpw and/or tempos or run intervals til you're blue in the face and it won't matter.

That second statement is not true in my experience. Four years ago I was running at about the OP's level, with about his experience. A season of Daniels' 5-15k training with a good bit of track work brought just a little improvement; then upping my mileage to the mid 80s (mostly doubles) and running ~marathon pace tempos until I was blue in the face - with very little time at faster than half marathon pace - brought me a giant step forward, my biggest improvement since my first year of running.

That said, I won't claim to know that this was the best possible route for even me, let alone for the OP or anyone else. If malmo offers advice, listen to him. His general lore has been one of the best sources of what's actually worked out well for me in practice.

Thomas Crowne wrote:

This has been touched on but I'm kind of surprised it hasn't been stressed. Your first goal is to get under - or at least close to 5 - for a mile. If you can't do that, you can run 100 mpw and/or tempos or run intervals til you're blue in the face and it won't matter. Forget you're a 5k runner for six months. Train for a 5 minute mile. When you can do that, you can probably run a 17:30 then and there; if not, take a couple months to return to 5k training and you're all set.

Interesting...this seems to go along with the previous posts about boosting my speed and makes sense to me. Any suggested workouts and weekly mileage targets?

To add a bit more detail about me, I started running for fitness, entered a local 1/2, got hooked and started to train for a marathon. Since Fall/07, my training has been geared toward that distance...ran my first in 3:32 in May/08. Then the idea of running Boston crept in and that was my goal...qualify in May/09, run Boston April/10. I ran 3:17 in the May/09 race (in 85 degree heat so that didn’t help as I felt I was, at worst, in 3:05 – 3:10 shape based on the 1:26 half I ran 6 weeks earlier) and was ticked off enough to run another in Sept/09 where I ran 3:09. At Boston I ran 3:11.

Anyway, my mileage hasn't been an issue I don't think. I ran something like 3400 miles in '09 and was averaged 75 in the early part of this year.

For a number of reasons, I'm done with the marathon distance for now. I've been focusing on 5k/10K training since May, but have seen no improvement on the 18:55 5K I ran more than a year ago (when my training was marathon-focused) and no improvement on the 19:10 I ran 3 months ago. So, there's my frustration -- I'm now focusing my training on a shorter distance, but can't improve on times that I set while focused on something much longer.

So, back to improving speed...that would kind of turn my training on its head. That is, get fast first, and then worry about endurance and stamina. Is that sort of the general consensus?

Cowboy Bob,

OK already! We got it!! I know it isnt my exchange with you and that malmo can defend himself, but I think your position is irrelevant and you are being too defensive over a non-issue. Some people in the world just enjoy being helpful and not getting anything in return except a feeling of "doing good." This isnt complicated. If people want to help for free-and thank God there are some out there-then yippee for them. And the OP will probably pay it forward in his own way sooner or later. The human equation is more important than money anyway.

Besides, you just said you sometimes coach for free...so what is the Big F-ing deal? I think you missed the BASIC idea of the original Post...he doesnt know how to make progress and wants to know if ANYONE is willing to help.

Maybe the "pay" will be a picture and results verifying success of the goal. Maybe the "pay" will be sharing personalities and developing a friendship of sorts. There are many ways to work together in deals like this that have a "satisfactory" payoff which involves no money or remuneration

nsmb, old and slow wrote:

That second statement is not true in my experience. Four years ago I was running at about the OP's level, with about his experience. A season of Daniels' 5-15k training with a good bit of track work brought just a little improvement; then upping my mileage to the mid 80s (mostly doubles) and running ~marathon pace tempos until I was blue in the face - with very little time at faster than half marathon pace - brought me a giant step forward, my biggest improvement since my first year of running.

That said, I won't claim to know that this was the best possible route for even me, let alone for the OP or anyone else. If malmo offers advice, listen to him. His general lore has been one of the best sources of what's actually worked out well for me in practice.

"about the op's level" "a giant step forward"

This means nothing. I've coached 4 flat 1500 guys to sub 15 5ks with no speed but that's because they already had the 4 flat in the bank. If they are 4:20 1500 guys, they better get fast first or they'll never crack 15. Same thing with a 4:10 miler. He's gonna have a tough time running 13:40. Get him down to 4:00-4:04, now he's got the speed to do it. It works straight across the board.

I hate bad analogies. The equivalent situation in golf would not be someone going up to a club pro and asking for free help, the equivalent would be someone going on a golf internet forum and posting a basic question. And I guarantee you if you find a golf forum right now and post some simple question about golf swings or clubs or whatever, you will get plenty of helpful responses, and none of them will start bitching about how golf coaches deserve more pay.

50 miles per week max. 60 minute long run but do it at 7:30 at slowest, 7 minutes is better. Most of your runs between 7 and 7:30 pace. One 400s workout a week. Start with 6 at 75 with a 400 jog recovery. Add one per week up to ten. When you get to ten, back to six with a 200 jog and build up again. When you get to ten, back to six with a 100 walk. Build to ten. When you get to ten, you're probably ready for a solid mile. Another workout per week of repeat 1000s at 4:00 with 60 seconds rest. 5 of them. Take the time down to 3:30 over the next few months. Strides two times per week. 10x100 with good speed and turnover. That should get you to close to 5 and like I said, you probably won't even need to build the distance up after that. You ought to hit 17:30 on that alone.

Not gonna say anyone else here is wrong, but i will tell you that i made the progression you want to make, on my own, at about the same age.

What i did that you (maybe) aren't: i gave it a little more time (5 yrs of consistent running). After consistently doing interval WO's (1 per week) year round, when i could do 4x1mile at about 5:50 and/or 6-8 800's at about 2:50, and tempo runs of 3 miles at about 6min pace, i set my (admittedly mediocre) PR's at 5k (17:50) and 10k (37:40).

I always felt i had good footspeed, but lacked 'strength', so i didn't do many 200's, 400's, but focused on longer intervals.

I think you're just about there; forego the marathons (like someone said); give yourself several months of hard interval WO's and i think you do even better than your goal.

Mike

"about the op's level" "a giant step forward"

This means nothing. I've coached 4 flat 1500 guys to sub 15 5ks with no speed

Surely you know far more than I, TC, and your road to Rome is likely better and more direct than mine. I'm just disputing your "all the mileage and tempos won't matter" bit - it's at least hyperbole. The mileage and tempos got me (to put it more directly) from where the OP is now to where he wants to go.

nsmb, old and slow wrote:

Surely you know far more than I, TC, and your road to Rome is likely better and more direct than mine. I'm just disputing your "all the mileage and tempos won't matter" bit - it's at least hyperbole. The mileage and tempos got me (to put it more directly) from where the OP is now to where he wants to go.

In this situation, there is no hyperbole. He has been running 75 mpw with nothing faster than a 5:20 mile pace for years. He can do that forever and he might improve some, but not down to his goal. You can "dispute" that all you want with your vague personal history (which, unlike the OP, already included some fast speed if you were doing Daniels) but, like I said it means nothing as it relates to the op's specific history and specific goals.

I'm not fast wrote:

malmo wrote:

How would 200s at 37s feel to you? What kind of shoes do you wear on the track?

With full, and I do mean FULL, recoveries, doable but hard. I've done 200 reps anywhere between :38 and :41 but they were usually part of some kind of ladder-type workout (e.g. 4 x 200; 2 x 400; 800; 2 x 400; 4 x 200).

So, for shits and giggles (and to see if I could) I ran 12 x 200 with 200 recovery yesterday. The 200s were all between 35 and 37 seconds. I wouldn't say they were all out efforts, but wouldn't think I could run them too much quicker. I could have run a few more if I needed to, but was glad when the workout was done as it was quite warm.

Is this the kind of pace I need to be running reps at despite my current 19 minute 5K fitness?

I'm not fast wrote:

So, for shits and giggles (and to see if I could) I ran 12 x 200 with 200 recovery yesterday. The 200s were all between 35 and 37 seconds. I wouldn't say they were all out efforts, but wouldn't think I could run them too much quicker. I could have run a few more if I needed to, but was glad when the workout was done as it was quite warm.

Is this the kind of pace I need to be running reps at despite my current 19 minute 5K fitness?

How do your calves feel today? Tell me how they feel tomorrow.