Why America should become obsessed with 800/1500/mile

Los Soles wrote:I also was showing that Snell and Elliot's efforts weren't flukes--their times from the early '60s are more-or-less right in the middle of the medal range for the last 50 years. It wasn't like Snell was some freak of nature that busted the natural progression, and everybody else has been steadily rising since then. Times haven't really been rising at all.

err...

they were actually

elliot ran 3'35 back on dirt in '60 & i think pretty much solo - put him on synthetic track of the '70s with wabbits & he'd have run close to, maybe even under 3'30 in that form with no other adjustments needed

snell ran 1'44 on grass which again musta been at least the level of 1'43-flat on a '70s synthetic

keino's 3'34 at mexico musta been worth close to 3'30 at sea-level, no matter what horseshit is peddled about him being "adapted" to altitude - he ran 3'34 in a hugely hypoxic environment

we also have ryun, who imo had 3'24/3'25 ability in his 3'33wr run on dirt in 95F off an amble for initial 300m - to me no one has been within 1s of his ability since - including hicham - & i'd unhesitatingly offer ryun a low/mid 1'42 for 800 in the form of that 1500wr - may have come very close to 1'41.99

How many threads has ventolin killed?

Bring us a WC Medal from Daegu 2011 and then ask again...

ventolin^3 wrote:

that is giving a false impression of the quality of these guys

if a guy wins a bronze in 3'40, he likely will have run something ridiculous on the last lap, something like 52s, maybe even 51s

I don't really disagree with your sentiments. Perhaps you exaggerate; perhaps I did as well. But I don't think I was giving a false impression either. I think it makes sense to talk about 3:40 as a logical barrier with the casual track fans. A logical, simple starting point. But yes, you have to be capable of running at least a few seconds faster to actually medal. I think that is more or less what I said.

Nick Willis ran a 3:34.16 for silver in Beijing. A few seconds faster than 3:40. Is he capable of faster? Of course. How much? I don't know, but his pr is 4:32.17.

ventolin^3 wrote:

a cat in hell's chance

ventolin, you're cute.

And your second post? You sure sound argumentative for someone trying to prove my point. My original point was, and I quote:

"1. Because the world hasn't really gotten that much faster in a long time."

The guys I mentioned, along with the guys you mentioned, show that the world hasn't really gotten that much faster in a long time. You take it a step further. Ok.

ventolin, you're cute.

do the sublime wrote:

Very nice sentiment but where was all this support when KD, Gray, Johnson, Parrilla, Krumnacker, Everett were running faster than Wheating and Symmonds are today. All of a sudden we realize how exciting the 800 is.

Uh, there was no internet for Gray, Parrilla, Everett, and I don't even know which Johnson you're referring to. JJ maybe? He strikes me as a national class guy, not world class.

Notice how he left out WC medalist Kenah. He has an axe to grind, and Kenah works against that.

800/1500 guy wrote:

do the sublime wrote:

Very nice sentiment but where was all this support when KD, Gray, Johnson, Parrilla, Krumnacker, Everett were running faster than Wheating and Symmonds are today. All of a sudden we realize how exciting the 800 is.

Uh, there was no internet for Gray, Parrilla, Everett, and I don't even know which Johnson you're referring to. JJ maybe? He strikes me as a national class guy, not world class.

Los Soles wrote:

By America, I mean everybody.

No, you mean white America.

Really? REALLY?!?

I said: "In America, instead of the all-West African sprinting team and the all-white (with the occasional East African transplant) distance team, the mid-distance crew is actually interesting. Khadevis Robinson, Nick Symmonds, Leo Manzano, Lopez Lomong, Andrew Wheating, Charles Jock, etc."

Did you catch that? That was one of my most important points. Mid D is the intersection of different genetic strengths. I specifically mentioned West African, East African, white, and Latino overlapping to meet in the middle.

I did work harder to show that whites can compete. Why? You don't have to convince anybody that black people can run fast. We've all got that message down. I'm trying to complicate that. It's not as simple as saying that black people are simply athletically superior. That's as ignorant and dangerous as saying that white people are academically superior.

In point #2 of the OP you are arguing that all Americans should become obsessed with 800/1500/mile BECAUSE these distances are not dominated by Americans of East African or West African descent. In other words, we ALL should shift our attention away from the distances where black Americans have excelled.

Your other points are fair. But #2 is sketchy. Why should the focus of American fans depend on the race/genetics of the athletes involved?

Hey Los Soles, if you're gonna mention people like charles jock in the 800, then you have to include people who are obviously faster, Robby Andrews, Duane Solomon, Jacob Hernandez, and the countless other people that he has lost to in the NCAA and USA championships.

And most nickelback songs are between 3:30 and 4:00 so in mile and 1500 you could blast the back in the stadium for every race! the crowds would go nuts

Well, at that point, I wasn't actually talking about Americans. There aren't all that many "Americans of East African" descent. A few, and I'll certainly cheer for them, but we're not going to become a sustainable distance power on the legs of those few.

I was talking worldwide. World's best times. As in, the world's best 5k and 10k times are pretty much dominated by Ethiopians and Kenyans.

That's very different from in the U.S. Distance teams across the U.S. are very, very white. letsrun is very white. Part of why mid d is better is precisely because it's not as white in the U.S.

I didn't say anything about what we should shift our attention away from. I sure as hell don't want any attention shifted away from any track events. Shifted away from? I don't know...football? baseball? poker? Lady Gaga? Xbox? Masturbation?

I don't know that the focus of American fans should depend on race/genetics. But does it, to some extent?

I think we naturally cheer for/aspire to become people who look/act/talk like us. That's not necessarily such an ugly thing (unless, of course, it becomes an ugly thing). We should definitely appreciate great athletic feats, regardless of race/genetics. But still, Chinese people cheer for Yao Ming. So what? Fewer black people are going to be as excited about swimming as track. So what? I'm a skinny short white guy who loves basketball, and I have a severe man-crush on Steve Nash. So what?

The beauty of mid d? Little Latino kid has Manzano. Big Latino kid has Juantorena. And so on.

forgot some names wrote:

Hey Los Soles, if you're gonna mention people like charles jock in the 800, then you have to include people who are obviously faster, Robby Andrews, Duane Solomon, Jacob Hernandez, and the countless other people that he has lost to in the NCAA and USA championships.

True.

USA!USA!USA! wrote:

How many threads has ventolin killed?

I scroll on by as soon as I see those ' marks.

Los Soles wrote:Perhaps you exaggerate

not really

a 3'40 guy has about much chance of wiining bronze in a major as he has of getting 3rd in a wabbited 3'30/3'31 race on the circuit - i e none

Nick Willis ran a 3:34.16 for silver in Beijing. A few seconds faster than 3:40. Is he capable of faster? Of course. How much? I don't know, but his pr is 4:32.17.

without doing the formal calcs, i reckon that indicates he was in about 3'31 shape - exactly what you expect for a runner up in the post-hicham era ( & implying he was in shape of his life for that race, but obviously not ridiculously so )

Los Soles wrote:

And your second post? You sure sound argumentative for someone trying to prove my point. My original point was, and I quote:

"1. Because the world hasn't really gotten that much faster in a long time."

i was referring to this quote :

It wasn't like Snell was some freak of nature that busted the natural progression

he was

he took 1.4s of the nearly 7y ole 800wr

USA!USA!USA! wrote:

How many threads has ventolin killed?

Everyone he pollutes.

Notice how every time he beats his drum about Ryun the end time gets quicker and the temp gets higher. It used to be 90 F, then before that 80s. Pathe news said it was "in the 80's", so where Mr Ventolin had his thermometer I hate to think. ;0)

i suggest you do some research before spouting nonsense

2'50 into this :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt8HIRvZNaM

& i settled on 3'24/3'25 for him a long time ago