Malmo leads Al Sal at NYCM

again with feeling wrote:

I pulled out the Jan 83 The Runner mag. It has a picture of the pack at mile 14. You're still right there on Salazar's shoulder. How long were you able hang with the pack? After the pack broke up (or at least after you were dropped) how did the race play out for you?

I wasn't hanging. I was the one who was keeping the pace honest at that point. A little past the 16 mile mark (the beginning of 1st ave in the big photo posted) the pack a had strung out to 6 or 7. At about 17 I let go when the cramps started hitting, and there were 4 left (Alberto, Gomez, Lopes and Murph). With 2 miles to go at the Plaza Hotel I was 5th and my hammys and quads were cramping badly, like little gremlins pinching them every 30 meters or so. Only 2 to go, I looked over my shoulder and about 200 meters back I saw someone, so I figured he was going to catch me and I'd have 6th locked up. At Cleveland Circle Tom Raunig caught me, and beat me by a full 7 seconds over the final 385 yards!!!

1 2:09:29 Alberto Salazar 24 OR

2 2:09:33 Rodolfo Gomez 31 MEXICO

3 2:11:54 Daniel Schlesinger 27 NC

4 2:12:44 Ryszard Marczak 36 POLAND

5 2:12:48 David Murphy 25 KY

6 2:13:22 Thomas Raunig 23 MT

7 2:13:29 George Malley 27 MA

8 2:13:43 Jose Gomez 26 MEXICO

9 2:13:51 Martti Kiiholma 30 FINLAND

10 2:14:00 Dean Matthews 27 GA

jjjjjjjjj wrote:

I have no idea whether 2 million is right or wrong. What I wonder is whether you have any evidence that crowds have decreased.

8 million people in all of NYC. 2 million of them on the course? Think about it?

I've made explicit commentary on the lack of crowds on First avenue to friends during the marathon. I think I may have taken photos. If I can find them I will dig them up. If not I'll be sure to take pictures at the 2010 event.

All crowd estimates at running events are ludicrously exaggerated.

One million people equals 11.85 people deep, shoulder-to-shoulder, both sides of the street for the entire length of the course.

Two million equals 23.70 people deep, shoulder-to-shoulder, both sides of the street for the entire length of the course.

So next time you hear crowd estimates, smile and give the real facts

Marathon distance 42.195 km. Both sides of the street 84.39 km. Give everyone one meter width to stand in. That means 11.85 people deep, both sides of the road, shoulder-to-shoulder, to get to one million people.

Another narrator? Yes, I can see that point of view. The voice is unmistakable. She is Lisa G, the current voice of Howard 100 news on Howard Stern's radio show. Upon viewing this video, I started laughing so hard I could not properly enjoy the video of this great race. Lisa G catches plenty of grief on the show, including a backdrop chant about her personal habits at work that is hilarious.

I wasn't hanging. I was the one who was keeping the pace honest at that point. A little past the 16 mile mark (the beginning of 1st ave in the big photo posted) the pack a had strung out to 6 or 7. At about 17 I let go when the cramps started hitting, and there were 4 left (Alberto, Gomez, Lopes and Murph). With 2 miles to go at the Plaza Hotel I was 5th and my hammys and quads were cramping badly, like little gremlins pinching them every 30 meters or so. Only 2 to go, I looked over my shoulder and about 200 meters back I saw someone, so I figured he was going to catch me and I'd have 6th locked up. At Cleveland Circle Tom Raunig caught me, and beat me by a full 7 seconds over the final 385 yards!!!

Malmo knows everything....just ask him!

"With 2 miles to go at the Plaza Hotel"

Which Plaza hotel are you talking about?

The Plaza Hotel on the Marathon course is a little less then a mile away.

malmo wrote:

Here's the crew at about 10 miles.

Image:

http://i45.tinypic.com/16j0zuu.jpg

Looks like 1:20:xx, so my guess is you guys were a bit farther along.

Dick Beardley was in the area recently and replayed the "Duel in the Sun" video. I hadn't seen it in a while and was amazed at the near total lack of crowd control. Looks like it was better at NYCM in those days, it that a correct interpretation?

Have you ever been in a crowd? I've never been in one where I had a linear meter of personal space. Maybe half that.

math man wrote:

All crowd estimates at running events are ludicrously exaggerated.

One million people equals 11.85 people deep, shoulder-to-shoulder, both sides of the street for the entire length of the course.

Two million equals 23.70 people deep, shoulder-to-shoulder, both sides of the street for the entire length of the course.

So next time you hear crowd estimates, smile and give the real facts

Marathon distance 42.195 km. Both sides of the street 84.39 km. Give everyone one meter width to stand in. That means 11.85 people deep, both sides of the road, shoulder-to-shoulder, to get to one million people.

ER Um...Certainly you meant Columbus Circle Malmo. This was an awesome race and it was great knowing the faces in the front crowd. Alberto pulled it out against Gomez much like his duel with Beardsley;

veryoldman wrote:

Malmo knows everything....just ask him!

"With 2 miles to go at the Plaza Hotel"

Which Plaza hotel are you talking about?

The Plaza Hotel on the Marathon course is a little less then a mile away.

Agro-boy, yes a mile to go.

Keith Stone wrote:

http://i45.tinypic.com/16j0zuu.jpg

]

Looks like 1:20:xx, so my guess is you guys were a bit farther along.

No, Beardsley dropped off the back of the group before the halfway mark. That photo was at about 10 miles, perhaps even earlier.

AccousticFellow wrote:

ER Um...Certainly you meant Columbus Circle Malmo.

Of, course. Cleveland Circle is in Boston.

I ran that day, my first ever marathon. It was cold and windy. Not hot at all.

math man wrote:

Marathon distance 42.195 km. Both sides of the street 84.39 km. Give everyone one meter width to stand in. That means 11.85 people deep, both sides of the road, shoulder-to-shoulder, to get to one million people.

Whether it be the NYC Marathon, Chicago Marathon or the Macys Thanksgiving Day Parade, crowd estimates are notoriously wrong.

2 million spectators means there are 76,900 spectators per mile. So that’s what, 14.5 people crammed into every foot along the course, or 7 people deep on each side for each foot for 26 miles, shoulder to shoulder. That’s assuming everyone is only 1ft shoulder to shoulder. Allow 2 feet per person, that means the crowd is packed tight 14 deep on each side for 26 miles. That’s just not anywhere near accurate. Not even for 1st avenue or Central Park.

The first two miles have no crowd. Neither does mile 16. Significant portions of the course have sparse crowds, almost none at all: from 12 to 15 miles and again from 18 to 21.5 miles. So out of 26 miles you have a significant proportion of it -- 9.5 miles -- where the crowd is either sparse (6.5 miles) or non-existent (3 miles). Now you've got to cram that phantom 2 million people into 16.5 miles. Do you see where I'm going with this yet?

Your confidence must have been high. And running 1:01:42 at Philly must have helped that. Great race that day!

malmo wrote:

Keith Stone wrote:http://i45.tinypic.com/16j0zuu.jpg

]

Looks like 1:20:xx, so my guess is you guys were a bit farther along.

No, Beardsley dropped off the back of the group before the halfway mark. That photo was at about 10 miles, perhaps even earlier.

Ah, brain fart, looked at

, commented on the wrong post. One of those weeks.

These calculations assume spectators are static -- that everyone occupies the same spot for the duration, and if he/she leaves, no one else moves into that spot.

So adjustments should include people who go to several spots on the course (negative adjustment), and people who move into vacated spots (positive adjustment)

Also, save for the halfmile bridge at 13, there are now a lot more people over 12-15 mi than a few years ago.

This is not to say I ensorse the "2 million" estimate. I am merely enjoying the fun with numbers.

Or, Joe, you could simply apply Ockhams Razor to the metric, and consider that there are 8 million people in NY who live on 305 square miles. It would be hard to fathom that 1/4 of them got up on a Sunday morning and commuted to a spot on the marathon course. It's a simple physical impossibility and a logistical elephant in the middle of the living room. If this were true, between the hours of 9am and noon, the subways would be filled, with virtually everyone going to or from a subway station on or close to the marathon course.

malmo wrote:

Or, Joe, you could simply apply Ockhams Razor to the metric, and consider that there are 8 million people in NY who live on 305 square miles. It would be hard to fathom that 1/4 of them got up on a Sunday morning and commuted to a spot on the marathon course. It's a simple physical impossibility and a logistical elephant in the middle of the living room. If this were true, between the hours of 9am and noon, the subways would be filled, with virtually everyone going to or from a subway station on or close to the marathon course.

That would be just Manhattan alone. If you account for all the crowds in the other boroughs ( except for staten Island, which couldn't really count for any significant spectators ) I don't see how 1.5-2 millions spectators would seem out of the realm of possibility. Let's also factor those who watch from their apt. windows, that alone would be tens or hundreds of thousands.

Not to mention that there are essentially no spectators the first two miles.

It is also interesting to see that in 1982 47 runners finished under 2:20; 167 under 2:30; 1597 under 3:00. In 2009, 20 under 2:20; 59 under 2:30; 999 under 3:00. And Chicago 2009 only had 834 under 3:00 and similar numbers at :20 and :30.

It is so strange how the marathon has surged as a participatory event, but sank as a sporting event in the US.

I do remember watching the race on tv in 1982. The crowds were massive. Maybe not 2 million, but not that far off.

The population of NY's five boroughs is 8.3 million. 1.6 in Manhattan, 2.5 in Brooklyn, 2.3 in Queens, 1.3 Bronx and 400k in Staten Island.

A quarter of them weren't on the course even back in the 80s when the crowds were huge.