How fast do you think the ancient olympians were?

I have the results at hand. Here.

100m 19.19

200m 43.18

400m 1:41.11

800m 3:41.83

1500m 7:20.67

5000m 26:17.53

MichelangeBRO wrote:

you forget that the man who ran the first marathon finished his 26.2 miles and then promptly died

How do you know that's not because he ran it in 1:30.

Larry Bird stinks wrote:

Humans are so superior nowadays to humans in ancient times. In the year 400, you would have difficulty finding someone that could break 20 in the 100.

Rubbish

  wrote:

I have the results at hand. Here.

100m 19.19

200m 43.18

400m 1:41.11

800m 3:41.83

1500m 7:20.67

5000m 26:17.53

This is about right.

oh ok. Who cares.

MichelangeBRO wrote:

you forget that the man who ran the first marathon finished his 26.2 miles and then promptly died

This was probably added to the story later on to make it sound more dramatic.

According to this guy, you can run 8 kph faster in spikes. Does that sound right?

MichelangeBRO wrote:

you forget that the man who ran the first marathon finished his 26.2 miles and then promptly died

True. Yet many forget that he first ran to Sparta to request help, a distance of about 150 miles. When turned down by the Spartans he than ran the 150 miles back to marathon only to be sent to Athens to warn them of the impending attack, a distance of 24 miles.

The marathon did not reach its distance of 26.2 miles until the modern olyimpics in london. This was because of the Queens request to watch it from her window. Prior to this olympics the distance was 24 miles, the distance between Marathon and Athens.

  wrote:

I have the results at hand. Here.

100m 19.19

200m 43.18

400m 1:41.11

800m 3:41.83

1500m 7:20.67

5000m 26:17.53

Is that FAT?

4'6 huh? yeah like alexander the great was a tiny dude. i bet they were just as fast as decent college dudes, prob 10.4s hand and prob 14-15 min 5k's. people were smarter and more active back then...check the pyramids, hanging gardens of babylon, the parthanon...yeah 4'6 uneducated weaklings made those things

A similar thread some years ago led me to an internet search that turned up some scholarly findings by, to the best of my memory, a British fellow.

It seems that as long ago as the late 18th century, betting on footraces was very popular and big time sports business.

He provided evidence that the four minute mile may have been broken back then, what with the professional and celebrity incentives.

yeah i used the same article for a paper i had to write for phys ed history....claims dudes in 1760's bet up to something like 10 years worth of salary and the bet was a mile in the 4 minute area....also said his brother made similar bets and they were pretty rich

I like this thread it made me curious

A google showed this:

Hercules is said to have established the stadium at Olympia after his military defeat of King Augeas in 1222 B.C. Evidently, however, it was not until 776 B.C. that regular, quadrennial games started being held at Olympia in southern Greece. The length of the stadium was determined by Hercules on the basis of his foot-length (which evidently included the sandal). The length of the stadium comprised 600 of the hero's foot-lengths. This made the length 192.25 meters, or 630.74 ft. From this the mathematician Pythagoras calculated just how much taller Hercules must have been than the presumably ordinary-sized person who laid out the stadium in Athens by a similar procedure. Since Hercules was "four cubits" in height (an Olympian cubit = 18.24 in.), or about 6 ft. 1 in., an average-sized Greek was thus determined as being 5 ft. 7.3 in. in height. Other (anthropological) evidence indicates that the latter height could well have been that of an all-around Greek athlete, and accordingly an inch or two above that of the average-sized Greek adult male of those times. Today, in contrast, an average-sized competitor in amateur track and field events stands 5 ft. 111/4 in. The weight of the typical Greek athlete was probably not over 155 lb., whereas today's athlete averages about 185 lb. These respective heights and weights should be kept in mind in any comparison of the probable capabilities of ancient Greek athletes with the known records of modern ones.

STAGING OF THE GAMES, AND THE ATHLETIC EVENTS ADOPTED

The games at Olympia were held in August, at the time of the full moon after the summer solstice, when athletes could sleep outdoors without fear of rain or chill. The opening ceremonies of the games started before daybreak on the morning of the tenth day of the moon. The first day was devoted to footraces. The second day was given mostly to field events: jumping, throwing the discus and javelin, and wrestling. The third day saw boxers in action, along with footraces in which the runners wore helmets and carried shields. The fourth day was given over to the contests for boys (i.e., youths under 17 years of age). And the fifth and final day saw thrilling four-horse chariot races. Three of the five days of the festival were also consecrated as follows: the first day, a sacrifice (as of a pig, a goat, or an ox); the third day, the full moon; and the fifth day, feasting.

To compare Greek athletes with modern ones, it should be sufficient to consider the five events of the Greek pentathlon: running, jumping, throwing the discus, throwing the javelin, and wrestling.

STAGING OF THE GAMES, AND THE ATHLETIC EVENTS ADOPTED

To start with wrestling (although it probably came last in the five-event series), in the Greek games tow main styles were recognized. In the first style, called "upright wrestling," the object was simply to throw one's opponent off his feet--that is, to a fall on the ground. In this style, three falls were necessary to decide the winner. If any part of the body above the knees touched the ground, it was counted a fall. However, if both wrestlers fell together, the fall did not count. Evidently this was the style of wrestling in which Milo of Crotona in his prime proved invincible. Milo's record of wins in wrestling was without a parallel. He was the champion in six Olympian, seven Pythian, nine Nemean, and ten Isthmian games--a period of strenuous competition covering some 24 years (540-516 B.C.) Although some writers have stated that in Milo's day wrestling was "to the death," this is not true, and would have been at total variance with the spirit of the games.

In the second form of wrestling, called "ground wrestling," the grappling went on after both wrestlers had taken to the ground, which incidentally had been watered until it was muddy and slippery. Ground wrestling was not recognized as a separate competition of the games, as was upright wrestling, but comprised, instead, a part of the grueling combat known as the pancratium, which combined boxing (bare-handed), wrestling, kicking, strangling, and just about everything else with the exception of biting or gouging, although even these tactics were resorted to if a combatant thought he could get away with them.

In both boxing and wrestling, the capabilities of victors in the early Greek games cannot be fairly compared with those of present-day champions, because of radical differences in their respective styles. More valid comparisons may perhaps be made in other of the events practiced then and now, such as running, jumping, and throwing the discus. However, even in a comparison of these measurable field events difficulties appear, as will now be seen.

RUNNING: ANCIENT AND MODERN PRACTICES COMPARED

The first competitive athletic event held in the Olympian and other Greek games was the short footrace, or sprint, which was run a single length of the stadium, a distance of approximately 200 yd. This race was called, appropriately, the stade. For the first 13 Olympiads, this sprinting race was the sole athletic event staged in the stadium. In the year 724 B.C. the double stade, or diaulos, was added. This race, of approximately 400 yd., was made by performing a half-turn of 180 deg. around a post at the far end of the track. In 720 B. C. a long-distance race called the dolichos was added, thus making three footraces of varying lengths. The dolichos, it is said, could be any distance from 7 to 24 stades, that is, from about 8/10 mi. to 2 3/4 mi. The most likely distance at Olympia was 20 stades, or about 2.3 mi.

As to the Greek victors in foot-racing, the first winner at Olympia was Coroebus of Elis, who by occupation was a cook. The distance he ran was the stade, which at Olympia measured about 210 yd. However, since the Greeks had no means of timing races, there is no way of knowing how fast Coroebus ran. Runners at all distances were started on their way by a blast from a trumpet, which could be heard over the shouting of the spectators. A boy's race, one stade in length, was introduced at Olympia in 632 B.C. Judging the probable speed of the Greek sprinters by their size, it is unlikely that their best time over the stade (200 yd.) was less than 19.3 sec. This would have corresponded to 100 yd. in 9.6 sec., or 220 yd. in 21.2. These times are about 94% as fast as today's best.

THE RUNNING BROAD JUMP

One of the most interesting comparisons of ancient versus modern athletic capabilities is that which has repeatedly been made in connection with jumping, specifically the running broad jump. The reason for this is the claim of an astounding leap of no less than 55 ft. in this style, attributed to the jumper Phayllos of Crotona, who was said to have made the jump in one of the Pythian Games, at Delphi. One of the main sources of confusion in connection with this jump is that most authors have accepted the distance they have assumed that it must have been covered using two, or even three, adjoining jumps. However, when it was discovered that at Delphi the length of a "foot" was not 12 in., but only 6.99 in., the "55-foot" jump by Phayllos shrank to an even 32 ft.

While the latter distance is still several feet beyond that of the present-day record, it can be accounted for on the grounds that Greek jumpers customarily swung a pair of halteres (jumping weights) in their hands to add impetus and distance. By this means, anywhere from 5 to 7 ft. could be added to what would otherwise have been a broad jump of 25 ft. However, it is evident that the champion jumpers of the ancient games were highly skilled in their specialty, and quite possibly on a par with the best amateur jumpers of today. But when the best modern professional jumpers--who exhibited from about 1890 to 1910--are considered, it is doubtful whether any ancient jumper could equal the standing broad jump by John Darby of England of 12 ft. 6 in., or the same jump by R. P. Williams of the U. S., who used weights in the hands, of 15 ft. 4 in. (See "The All-around Wonder" in this chapter.)

TOSSING THE DISCUS

The word "tossing" is used here to indicate the movement used by the ancient Greeks, which was an underhanded throw rather than the body-whirling release used by today's discus throwers. In consequence of this radical difference in style or technique, no direct comparison can be made between the respective distances attained in tossing the discus in the Greek style and hurling it with the complex technique evolved by modern performers. Quite apart from the style employed is the weight of the discus. This, among Greek diskoi, which were generally made of bronze, varied widely (from less than 3 lb. to over 12), with an average weight of 5 lb. 11 oz. In comparison, the modern men's discus weighs only 4 lb. 6 1/2 oz. The best discus toss made by an ancient Greek performer--or at least the only record handed down--was made by Phayllos in one of his contests in the pentathlon, and was a distance of 105 ft. If this distance was attained using a discus of average weight (5 lb. 11 oz.), and if, instead of using an underhanded toss, Phyllos had applied modern technique to his throw, it can be calculated that he should have reached a distance of between 138 and 147 ft. While some modern performers in the decathlon have done no better than these figures, the world record (made by a much larger athlete), is over 232 ft. So, it may be said that for their bodily size the ancient Greek discustossers were on a par with the decathlon performers of today, but were decidedly inferior to the heavyweight record-holders in the discus.

THROWING THE JAVELIN

Just as in the discus throw, the pentathlon event of hurling the javelin, or light spear, cannot be directly compared with the event as it is practiced today. This is mainly because (1) the object of the throw was primarily to attain accuracy, as in aiming at a target, rather than distance; and (2) the javelin was thrown with a leather thong (amentum) wound around the shaft. The thong, by reason of its length, in effect increased the length of the thrower's arm, thereby increasing the length of his throw. Too, the spiral winding of the thong increased the accuracy of the javelin's flight. Possibly as a result of these differences in the objective of the Greek javelin throw, no record has been handed down of what distances were attained.

SUM-UP

To answer our opening question, How good were the ancient Greek athletes? it can only be said that physically they were the best of their time and place. But their small bodily size, compared with that of today's champion athletes, would necessarily have placed them at a disadvantage in the great majority of today's competitive events. That the Greeks themselves recognized the advantages of greater bodily size is shown in their sculptured figures of gods and heroes, in which a proportion, on the average, of 8 1/7 head-heights to total stature indicates a standing heights of from 6 ft. 4 in.

David Wallechinsky & Irving Wallace

Nutella1 wrote:

This was probably added to the story later on to make it sound more dramatic.

well, either way, he did it wearing vibram five fingers. and arm warmers.

It is interesting to note that we have survived and thrived while perhaps the swiftest animal at that time, the sabre toothed tiger, fell by the wayside. That should tell us something.

phidip wrote:

A similar thread some years ago led me to an internet search that turned up some scholarly findings by, to the best of my memory, a British fellow.

It seems that as long ago as the late 18th century, betting on footraces was very popular and big time sports business.

He provided evidence that the four minute mile may have been broken back then, what with the professional and celebrity incentives.

Read that book about the 'pedestrians' of 18th and 19th century by Bruce Tulloh. Cannot remember the name. Those guys trained hard. One-on-one long races drew crowds of 10-15000.

Anyway, Captain Barclay et al had big money incentives to train hard, and they did. The Victorian 'amateur' ethic by the late 19th c. meant that by the time 1896 came around big training was out of fashion - not 'undiscovered'.

  wrote:

I have the results at hand. Here.

100m 19.19

200m 43.18

400m 1:41.11

800m 3:41.83

1500m 7:20.67

5000m 26:17.53

Lol! Interesting formula used.

I assume they were all white. > 10 sec per 100m.

Are those "K"s times?