So maybe Bob Kennedy wasn't so great after all.

Lots of people can do lots of things. The great thing about our sport is that the only thing that matters is what someone has actually done--and Bob Kennedy has done it over and over.

Bob Kennedy 14 of the top 23 performances from 1994-1999

Everyone Else: 9 of the top 23 performances from the beginning of time through 2010.

"So maybe Bob Kennedy wasn't so great after all."

When Bob went sub-13 he was buried in the pack. Nowadays sub-13 puts you in contention for 1-3. The epo test was instituted in 2000.

Thats cause kennedy was a racer. If you ever watched any of those race Kennedy was in there taking the lead and trying to win these races not just sitting back and being safe. Also these guys today pick out one race where they can put it all together usually only running in the perfect race with the perfect condition. Guys like rupp out there worrying about the wind or alergies. Kennedy was a professional and ran in all the meets because thats how you get better.

"Everyone Else: 9 of the top 23 performances from the beginning of time through 2010."

Funny stuff their Malmo .....

Let's face it, whoever started this thread was looking to piss people off, or is a really big douche bag.

You're forgeting that that when Kennedy was running 12:58.21 in 1996, the world record had only been 12:58.39 two years earlier before Haile showed up on the scene. The fact that his record lasted 13 years shows how great he was.

Some Coach wrote:

"Everyone Else: 9 of the top 23 performances from the beginning of time through 2010."

Funny stuff their Malmo .....

Let's face it, whoever started this thread was looking to piss people off, or is a really big douche bag.

Uh .... that should read "there" .... it's fun to be illiterate!

How anyone can try to discredit Kennedy's accomplishments is beyond me. The guy went head-to-head with the Kenyans -- alone -- pretty much for an entire decade. He had no problem mixing it up with them anytime, anywhere. He had no problem pressing the issue in races and ran without fear. And he also had the balls to go to Europe and train with them as well. All of this while rarely training at altitude and never using the bells and whistles that Salazar and his ilk think you need to compete. I think there are young American runners with talent, but until they are ready to really, truly lay it on the line and embark the same competitive path that Kennedy did, he sits alone on the pedestal.

"When Bob went sub-13 he was buried in the pack."

That's false. If Bob would have run 12:58 in 1994 instead of 1996 it would have been a WORLD RECORD. He was not "buried in the pack". He was usually in contention. He LED the '96 Olympic 5000m final late in the race. He finished 6th. He was CONSISTENTLY <13-13:10 for 4 or 5 years.

No one as yet compares:

1999: 2nd in 5,000 at USA Outdoors (13:26.85)... 9th at World Champs (13:23.52)...ranked #1 in U.S. in 3,000, 5,000 and 10,000 by T&FN... bests of 7:32.55, 13:05.54 and 27:38.37.

1998: 4th in the 5000 (13:27.51) at Goodwill Games...8th in 3000 at Monaco, with American record 7:30.84...7th in 3000 (7:52.89) at the GP Final...4th at Prefontaine Classic (13:21.38)...10th in 1500 in USA Outdoors (3:40.86)...ranked #1 in U.S. at 3000m and 5000m by T&FN...bests of 13:03.57 and 7:30.84.

1997: Won USA Outdoors (13:30.86)...6th in World Champs (13:19.45)...ranked #1 in U.S. at 5000 by T&FN... bests of 13:06.62 and 7:31.77 (3k), 3:56.59 (mile).

1996: 6th in Olympic Games 5k (13:12.35)... won 5000 at Olympic Trials (13:46.17)... ran American record 12:58.75 for 2nd at Stockholm, then bettered it with 12:58.21 for 5th at Zurich ...broke AR for 3000 with a 7:33.96 for 8th in Monaco, broke that record while taking 3rd in 3000 (7:31.69) at Brussels...5th in GP Final 5000 (13:04.04)... 2nd (top American finisher) in USA Indoor 3000 (7:47.41)...ranked #6 in world (#1 U.S.) at 5000 by T&FN...bests of 12:58.21 and 7:31.69 (3k).

1995: Won USA Outdoors 5k (13:19.99)... 7th in 5000 in World Champs (13:32.10)...won USA Indoor 3000 (7:48.39)...14th in World XC Champs...ranked #1 in U.S. at 5000 by T&FN...bests of 13:03.37 and 7:36.15 (3).

1994: Won USA XC Trials, but a stress fracture in his shin kept him out of the World XC Champs...4th in 1500 at USA Outdoors (3:38.74)...ran 7:35.33 for an American record at 3000m...7th in GP Final 5000 (13:16.93)...ranked #4 in world (#1 U.S.) at 5000 by T&FN; #4 U.S. at 1500...bests of 13:02.93 and 7:35.33 (3K), 3:56.21 (mile).

Easily the best post I have ever seen malmo make.

Thanks for backing up my point. He was consistently 4th-8th in international competition, not too many 1-3 placings there. This doesn't detract from his being the greatest AMERICAN 5000 runner, it was just a different era, competitively.

letsrun critician wrote:

Easily the best post I have ever seen malmo make.

You must be new in these parts?

Whoops. I was waiting for a Sirhan Sirhan reference...sorry...my bad.

Ursus horribilis wrote:

Thanks for backing up my point. He was consistently 4th-8th in international competition, not too many 1-3 placings there. This doesn't detract from his being the greatest AMERICAN 5000 runner, it was just a different era, competitively.

Runningart2004 wrote:

"When Bob went sub-13 he was buried in the pack."

That's false. If Bob would have run 12:58 in 1994 instead of 1996 it would have been a WORLD RECORD. He was not "buried in the pack". He was usually in contention. He LED the '96 Olympic 5000m final late in the race. He finished 6th. He was CONSISTENTLY <13-13:10 for 4 or 5 years.

No one as yet compares:.

At respective points in their careers Rupp has a much better start.

More AJR and CR and AR achievements as well as more NCAA titles, better PRs, more international championship teams and already he has two top 8 finishes at international championships.

Not only that but he has PR's at the mile, 3K, 5K and 10K in the past 2 months so his progression continues.

The loud voices on letsrun love to discredit him but his build up to now has been superior to Kennedy.

What Kennedy did after college is still the benchmark, but one thing to keep in mind is that guys now are running against more depth than Kennedy was so comparing top 8 finsihes from then may be more equivalent to top 10 or top 12 finished now.

The mystique with Kennedy was that he was doing it ALONE. While the rest of America was grinding away at low-volume, high-intensity garbage (and getting garbage results), Kennedy was going toe to toe with the Kenyans. His domination of the national running scene and his tenacity at the international level are a testament to how great he was. Rupp (as we saw on Saturday) has plenty of friends to play with in the US.

12345 wrote:

The mystique with Kennedy was that he was doing it ALONE. While the rest of America was grinding away at low-volume, high-intensity garbage (and getting garbage results), Kennedy was going toe to toe with the Kenyans. His domination of the national running scene and his tenacity at the international level are a testament to how great he was. Rupp (as we saw on Saturday) has plenty of friends to play with in the US.

Partly true, but did Kennedy dominate college the way Rupp did his last year? Even prior to that think about the guys that Rupp had finished 2nd to? Rupp was a man among boys and the boys were men of their own.

As far as AFTER college you are absolutely right that Kennedy was a pioneer as an American. That doesn't take away from Rupp though, Rupp has also done things that no other American was doing at his level. 13:37, 28:15, leading an NCAA 10K as a freshman and dropping all but Rob Cheseret.

Don't get me wrong, I think Kennedy had a big affect on Rupp as others have, however coming up thru the ranks Rupp often took it to a level no American long distance runner had before and he continues to do so as a pro his career as a pro may be so as well.

Not trying to disprespect BK at all, just saying that next to him Rupp appears to be the one on track to have the most decorated career.

spoken for truth wrote: 15 years later we SHOULD have 4 guys running faster than previous record holders.

Definitely. And you know what else pisses me off: how come none of the new generation of runners has evolved a third arm by now, to help deal with the jostling in the pack in big European races? Or maybe an extra lung? I mean, 15 years is a long time, we're pretty much a whole different species now. We should have evolved some more useful traits.

(As for the original point, Kennedy's greatness has nothing to do with how many people beat his time in the future. Even if, 10 years from now, none of his times are left in the all-time U.S. top 20, which is highly unlikely, that still doesn't change the fact that he at one time completely owned that list.)

Another point to make is that many US runners, back then, deferred to Bob as God. In this case I don't think it was good for US running as a whole.

US running in the 90s was a disgrace. Check out how slow the final of '96 5000m trials was:

1. Bob Kennedy (Nike) 13:46.17

2. Matt Giusto (Foot LockerAC) 13:56.69

3. Ronnie Harris (Reebok Enclave) 13:57.49

4. Jim Spivey (AsicsInternational TC) 13:58.81

5. Steve Plasencia (Asics International TC) 13:59.95

6. Ray Pugsley (Reebok Enclave)14:01.69

7. Mark Coogan (New Balance TC)14:04.63

8. James Menon (U. of Wisconsin) 14:09.52

9. Brian Baker (New Balance TC) 14:11.72;

10. Alan Culpepper (U. of Colorado) 14:14.37;

11. Jason Stewart (US Army) 14:15.63;

12. Pete Julian (Adidas TC) 14:18.82;

13. Dan Held (Nike) 14:30.41;

14. Adam Goucher (U. of Colorado)14:36.20;

15. Reuben Reina (Foot Locker AC) 14:39.31;

16. Tim Gargiulo (Brooks RC) 14:51.37.

Did they take walk breaks or something? Jeebus. No one had balls back then to challenge Bob and so they always deferred to him to take control of a race.

You must be drinking the coolade.

Greenhorn wrote:

You must be new in these parts?