Ptizinger Or Daniels 10k Schedule

the real deal wrote:

hmmm...Pfitzinger has run hundreds of competitive 10k's, competed in the Olympics, has REAL intimate knowledge of what athletes do.

And Daniels?

I believe he states in his 2nd edition book (don't have it in front of me) that running was his weak point and thus was drawn to learn more about it.

Pete considers himself very fortunate to have learned from a wide variety of coaches and athletes, including Tom Cole, his coach in his early years at Pittsford High School, and Jack Warner at Cornell University. Later, Pete gained invaluable insights into training and coaching from coaches Arch Jelley, Kevin Ryan, Bill Squires, Arthur Lydiard, Bill Dellinger, Dick Quax, Bob Sevene, and David Martin (and more recently from triathlon coaches Mark Elliott, Chris Pilone, John Hellemans and Sergio Santos). Pete has also received ongoing advice and support from coach and exercise physiologist Jack Daniels.

Kevin52 wrote:

http://pfitzinger.com/profile.htm

Pete considers himself very fortunate to have learned from a wide variety of coaches and athletes, including Tom Cole, his coach in his early years at Pittsford High School, and Jack Warner at Cornell University. Later, Pete gained invaluable insights into training and coaching from coaches Arch Jelley, Kevin Ryan, Bill Squires, Arthur Lydiard, Bill Dellinger, Dick Quax, Bob Sevene, and David Martin (and more recently from triathlon coaches Mark Elliott, Chris Pilone, John Hellemans and Sergio Santos). Pete has also received ongoing advice and support from coach and exercise physiologist Jack Daniels.

What is the point of posting this?

I do not understand how that supports either side of the issue.

the real deal: Do you think my reason for selecting Pfitzinger of the two choices is without merit?

I strongly agree with your fundamental point: that the best guidance comes from what has actually worked for successful runners.

I just disagree that Pfitzinger's book necessarily offers more of that than Daniels's.

For one thing, Daniels has had very close access to more than a few highly successful runners. I wouldn't hold Pfitz superior in knowing what works.

For another, I don't believe that either of their books is really a distillation of how they, or their top athletes, actually trained. They're both too diluted with other considerations, especially trying to align the training prescriptions with the exercise physiology du jour rather than what's been proven to work.

Indeed one might get better advice from either of them one-on-one. But that's not what the OP was asking about.

For self-coached recreational runners, my take is, read a few books if you're so inclined. Don't take any one as gospel - though you can pretend to, for a season or two, while following its training program to see how it works for you. If you do this, make sure to try a few programs which vary considerably (e.g. Hanson's "marathoning for the masses" is notably different from Daniels/Pfitz) to learn how different training affects you. Ultimately you're building experience and knowledge that you don't need to rely on some suboptimal canned program.

the real deal wrote:

What is the point of posting this?

Stop diggin!

ROFL

I think everybody beside you got the point!

Brother Louis wrote:

the real deal wrote:

What is the point of posting this?

Stop diggin!

ROFL

I think everybody beside you got the point!

Please, explain it to me then.

Some interesting opinions here.

I have both the books and was planning on following one of the plans. I suppose the main difference between them is the amount of speedwork each week. Ptizinger alternates between a tempo or interval session each week with some strides where as Daniels often offers upto 3 quality sessions per week.

I suppose I was hoping for opinions on this. I'd be interested to hear if anyone had used any other 10k schedules with success too.

I did a few months of Hadd's methods but didn't see much improvement, if any, despite an increase in mileage. Im hoping because of this Im just lacking some speedwork.

There are good or great athletes who turn out to be great coaches (like salazar). There are many that stink.

Some good coaches were never good athletes at the sport they coach. Bill belicheck.

John Cook (this weeks training talk) was a minor league soccer player.

On the other hand, Daniels has two olympic medals, so what they heck are you talking about? pfits also has a couple of good marathons, notably the olympic trials and a couple of west coast marathon wins (i forget which). No olympic medals though.

Greetings, I would say that if you would like to improve in your time there is no secret training or this training works better than this one. The only way i personally see to get better or improve your times would be to run more..more you run the better you get.

Hope this help.

At age 47 I used Daniels' formula to bring my 10K time down from 41 to 36 in a few months. So it worked for me.

Thats a very good improvement.I've got 19 weeks before the 10k so it would have plenty of time to have an effect.what sort of mileage were you doing?

Why do you want opinions?

Were you going to train based on majority of opinion, or on the eloquence of the answers.

Just go to the source.

http://pfitzinger.com/index.shtml

Real deal. I've got the resources. I was hoping for impartial opinions and some discussion. I thought that was the point of this forum.Have you not got an opinion?

OP....you certainly seem committed to getting the most out of your training and bring your 10K time down.

Soooooooo......try them both over the next year or so. Then report back.

Since you want opinions, IMO for you, I don't think choosing either Pfitzinger or Daniels will make much of a difference. Given the backgrounds of both, I'm sure they both provide competent plans that give some proven balance of training with recovery.

(Actually I see above, since Pfitz gets training advice from Daniels, you may just go with Pfitz, and get the best of both! :-))

I can't actually speak for Pfitz, but my impression of Daniel's Running Formula is that he provides comprehensive advice how to improve in your training, based on recent race performances determining optimal training paces, and periodizing it in blocks of up to 24 weeks. If anything, I believe Daniel's leans toward conservative progress, for maximizing injury avoidance.

In my opinion, this periodization, combined with a good balance of workouts and recovery at appropriate training paces, incorporates some key principles, and is a good general formula for the broad masses. Anything more will require personal customization, by finding (or becoming) a competent coach.

What you may find interesting is reading this thread:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2375989

and ask/answer yourself how you respond to different kinds of training? You may find that 400m reps at 10K pace is better for you than tempo runs, or vice versa.

The thread is a discussion between Hadd and Antonio Cabral, where Cabral goes into extensive discussion about differences between 2 very different athletes, with similiar 5K/10K times, and the different specific training each required. That is, neither one would have performed as well doing the other one's training.

What I also note about you:

- 3 years isn't a very long running history. A few more years of periodization (like Daniels describes) should still lead to some significant improvements.

- following a Hadd (Phase 1) buildup for 3 months is also not a very long to see significant results.

Just to say that following specific 10K training plans should be periodically alternated with general training phases that better supports more intense specific training.

DON'T follow some plan out of a book. If you listen to all of the good training advice on this website, you realize that whatever someone writes in a book probably won't work for you. Here's what you should do: Read Daniel's book right up until he gives his comprehensive 24 week plan with every run prescribed. Don't read the plan, just close the book, take the advice from the first half, and make up your own schedule. He has taught you the principles, its not that hard to apply them: develop aerobic base, add some tempos, add some repeats, add some VO2 workouts. Just do it based on how you feel, and recover!

50-60 mpw

If you think it is lacking speed work add speed work. most success is going to come when you individualize your plan. cookie cutting never works well. I think both people are really smart and have great ideas but both acknowledge individualization and periodization.

10k training: Daniels' latest edition over Pfitz

Marathon: Advanced Marathoning by Pfitz over Daniels