I'd bet that they've been a whole lot more people hurt in the vicinity of Harvard Square than at Franklin Park over the years. I've seen some acts of violence at Franklin Park, but I've seen more in the Harvard Square area. What are we to do - hide under the bed?
Here's what I don't understand. The course at FP is dirt, so what if it gets trampled, it's dirt, what other use is there for dirt?
When they are not running xc on it, they are walking on it, it's just dirt. Does dirt have to be kept up? Are the trails used for something other than walking or running where the upkeep of dirt is important?
They're mostly concerned with the start/finish field and the grass there. The thing is, that is the hardiest grass I've even seen. Nothing kills that stuff. So, it's much to do about nothing.
One real problem is that the park is a relatively small area of land and can't really hold all the cars and busses.
Some of the locals don't like the imposition on "their" park. On the other hand, some other locals are ok with it, but they aren't the politically active ones.
It wouldn't be the worse thing in the world to have an alternative course in the Boston/Eastern Mass area. Spread the wealth/grief around a bit.
la la land wrote:
I'd bet that they've been a whole lot more people hurt in the vicinity of Harvard Square than at Franklin Park over the years. I've seen some acts of violence at Franklin Park, but I've seen more in the Harvard Square area. What are we to do - hide under the bed?
Nope. I was just relating a story from my experiences. Actually, I always suspected that the coaches had stationed the student manager behind some bushes with a stash of bottles to throw and a cap gun. Helped keep the adrenaline up!
la la land wrote:
In the old days; Alberto Sal days etc...they would hold the races on the golf course next to FP; the problem with FP is the upkeep, it gets rutty and there is tons of trash after meet. No one wants to do upkeep the the money they are asking for is well within reason for the amount of traffic they get.
But, if they do get this money there should be some accoutability as to what they are doing with it-most people would be ok if they know and see were the money is being spent well.
my 2 cents.
They're mostly concerned with the start/finish field and the grass there. The thing is, that is the hardiest grass I've even seen. Nothing kills that stuff. So, it's much to do about nothing.
One real problem is that the park is a relatively small area of land and can't really hold all the cars and busses.
Some of the locals don't like the imposition on "their" park. On the other hand, some other locals are ok with it, but they aren't the politically active ones.
It wouldn't be the worse thing in the world to have an alternative course in the Boston/Eastern Mass area. Spread the wealth/grief around a bit.
I would pay fee "if":
we are allowed to put smaller gravel, dirt, or erosion steps up Bear Cage Hill. I ran the course twice this year and those rocks (almost boulders) on BCH were ridiculous.
I do agree with everyone that a usage fee is not unreasonable and seems to make sense.
This is probably necessary and a positive in the grand scheme of things. Don't think anyone has already mentioned this...but they've been on the verge of closing Frank Park Zoo in the past year because of funds, which is a very real possibility, and perhaps this is a way to close that gap? It'd be tragic if people did stop using it for meets, but it'd be more tragic if they were forced to close the zoo permanently and put down many of the animals.
Ask Gov Patrick.
John,
You seem want to create an antagonistic position on a topic that is still very much in discussion stages. Your opening statement of "cross country may be a thing of the past over the historic Franklin Park course" is inflammatory and far from the truth. Your post lacks a lot of facts.
I addressed your claims in detail after your post on DyeStat; I won't repeat all of it here, but some basic points.
- Franklin Park is a city park, not Franklin State Park.
- The overwhelming majority of runners coming in to run are from out of the city.
- The park has a very small footprint and very little parking and the city has made it work in having thousands of participants and spectators descend on the park on a day.
- The Boston Parks staff that works with XC want it to continue, and gives a lot of time to the concerns. They have to balance XC race needs with the upkeep of the park as a whole, and to the abutting neighborhoods, who are the taxpayers and voters. That community is who the parks department is primarily responsible and responsive to. You don't have any idea how many times that group has smoothed things that potentially could have put significantly more restrictions on XC at FP; one of those was a letter/email campaign started by a few HS coaches based again on lack of all the facts. If parks wanted XC out, it would have been gone long ago.
- There is also a Franklin Park Coalition - the "group" that you may be referring to - that is a community park watchdog, something not uncommon in many communities. Some hard work by several individuals to establish good relationships with them has reaped much good will with that group regarding XC. There is no groundswell to eliminate cross country (spoken as a member of the FPC). But they do have a right to wonder how the still damaged fields are going to be repaired (and neither the MA state federation nor NCAA seem to want to be involved with repairing; budgets, you know).
- Beyond a $25 or $100 fee for use of the trailer and equipment, the costs are solely for rangers and an on-site parks department manager. There has been no usage fee. Compare that to some of the other major sites around the country (someone who knows what is charged and what is received at Van Cortlandt Park is requested to post).
- Like many cities, one of the first line items cut in tough budget times is parks department. General upkeep continues, major improvements and repairs do not get done.
The coaches ass'n did make an offer - not sure of the year - and it wasn't followed through on. Maybe a stronger or specific plan needed to be presented, and pursued.
There will definitely be a fee for all races in 2010, the question is how much and the form. It may be per runner, it may be on a sliding scale, it may be a combination. The college leagues you mention, as well as the individual college and the open meets are amenable to paying a fee. Meet directors of event now held at the park have been involved from the start via email in the discussions, and suggestions have gone back and forth. There will be an in-person meeting on it this spring so it is settled before the fall season.
But it's all very fluid, and the original posts lend nothing to the solution.
And, John, in the meantime, maybe you can put in a reservation to have your golf course in Falmouth host the state meets.
Steve Vaitones
I don't want to hijack this thread, but I have a historical question that maybe some of the Mass XC crowd can answer.
I've poked around on the web and haven't found anything that helps.
In a piece of fiction I'm working on, I need to have a Cambridge grad student who was a decent XC collegiate runner (nothing special, just OK at the college level and loves to run) running in some XC events.
This would be in the late sixties/early seventies -- say, 67 earliest, 71 latest
So -- were there club or all-comers XC events, then, where a guy could show up and run? Would he have to belong to a club, in those AAU days? If there were any races, would there have been just one or two a year, or would they have been more frequent?
Thanks for any help.
Diet Dr. Pepper wrote:
Please list the other acceptable venues for large, invitational meets in Boston.
Who said it has to be in Boston? It can be within 30 miles of the city and be fine
Steve Vaitones wrote:
And, John, in the meantime, maybe you can put in a reservation to have your golf course in Falmouth host the state meets.
Steve Vaitones
John just got pwned.
Diet Dr. Pepper wrote:
ahollllian wrote:A $1 or $2 use fee per runner sounds reasonable to me.
Seriously. It's a use fee, and it makes perfect sense. You have your base fee (currently paid) which cover the basic rental of the facility. Then you have a per person fee for the upkeep. More runners = more damage to the facility, especially when the weather turns bad.
Having the state association send volunteers seems like a nice gesture, but really I see it causing more problems than it solves. Speaking as a crew chief of several trail building teams, having people with zero experience "helping" is a huge pain in the ass. Better to have the pros do it.
If a school has 50 runners (a huge team, in other words), it's only an extra $50-100. That's not a lot.
Exactly, get off your asses and hold a few frickin bake sales and car washes in the summer and earn your way.
Exactly, get off your asses and hold a few frickin bake sales and car washes in the summer and earn your way.[/quote]
Think again.
The school I coach at has a user fee of $300.oo per kid to run xc. We have to pay our own entry fees to Invites, no money in the budget for them, we can no longer travel out of State for Invites, unless we want to rent a bus or vans on our own. The kids and their families are already being charged up the wazoo to participate and already have to fund raise in order to attend invites, we don't need more fees.
Most of the people who live in that area should be mad - they don't like seeing stick figure snowmen from the suburbs invade the park, reminding them of how they are struggling to make ends meet, much less have any time to work on fitness and aerobic capacity. Help out the community...
If you go there during the summer to do a workout, there are some awesome hiphop/r&b dj parties/festivals with the bass bumpin real good. Sets great rhythm for your workout Sometimes They give out lemonade to the runners. The locals are nice people so don't piss them off. Its only a few crazies of the locals (usually hs aged teenagers) in that area who are strapped and be runnin their mouths
Who is john carroll?
The most importatn question has not been asked.
Who gives a fuggggggg. Its xc, we're mostly men so we don't participate anyway.
definition of Snowman - used to describe an unwelcome Caucasian male
example in a sentence
"Hey, look at that snowman over there, man! What's he got under the hood?" - Hector, Fast and Furious
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=snowman&page=3
Steve Vaitones wrote:
John,
... Your opening statement of "cross country may be a thing of the past over the historic Franklin Park course" is inflammatory and far from the truth.
In John's defense, it's called TROLLING. usually you have to stretch the truth a bit to pull it off on LR boards. but if one should choose to do this, one needs to come up with a creative and anonymous LR poster name.
Is this John Carroll? Forgive me but I've never heard of this guy. He just got dissed bigtime by the director of USATF-NE though.
http://www.grabow.biz/Speakers/JohnCarroll.htmI haven't read the posts here but... It seems that the modern world is getting too expensive to run. Think about expenses that everyone- governments, businesses, schools, the general public- have compared to the 1970's.
Just the energy bills are higher because we are using so much more electricity with high tech equipment.
When I was a kid my parents didn't have computers sapping electricity, a cell phone bill... you get the idea. Schools not only have computers to buy and pay for upkeep but they have a whole department of people to take care of them.
The money has to come from somewhere- taxes. Tax runners for using a park to participate in the most simple, pure form of recreation there is.
We need to go back to a simpler time.