Adams 4-5 guys under 14min 5k or Oregons 4:00 milers- whats more impressive?

wait until the end of outdoor season. oregon is better in every event and every aspect. sorry d2 fans...

bharv wrote:

How about stanford with 4 guys under 4:00 as well and three this weekend (ALMOST)...none named derrick.

This weekend they had:

Ferris, Dylan Stanford 3:58.90$

6 Marpole-Bird, Justin Stanford 3:58.76$

4 Sullivan, John Stanford 4:00.02*

a few weeks back heath went 3:57 as well correct?

I don't know about that Heath time--I will say that the second half of his 3000 this weekend didn't look good.

Riley ran a 13:52 several weeks back--solo after Heath paced him through the first 3000 or so.

They also have two freshmen who have run, I believe, 4:02 and 4:05.

And yes, this all excludes Derrick.

And both Oregon and Adams State have had incredibly impressive indoor seasons so far. I wish people wouldn't try to qualify Adams State as 'good for a D2 school', or discount Oregon just becuase they're Oregon.

Breaking 4 takes more natural talent. Breaking 14 takes more training.

Taking past seasons into account, UO has 6 guys legitimately sub 14.: AJ, Centro, Klotz, Wall, Puskedra, Di Mercado.

Da Mercado is close (14:03) and Maag has joined (13:41).

asc alum wrote:but on paper 5 under 4 minutes is more impressive.

No, on paper it says that 5 D1 guys ran under 4:00, and 5 D2 guys ran under 14:06. And the latter is more impressive. Acosta runs 3:45 in HS and breaks 4:00; Centro runs 4:03 in HS and breaks 4:00; Fleet runs 4:02 and breaks 4:00. Damn, that's impressive. Oh wait, no, that's normal progression. McNamara, yeah, going from a 4:15 guy to sub-4:00 and an '08 OT 1500 qualifier, that's impressive. But the stable at large should be able to produce this many sub-4:00 guys. Braun, on the other hand, came in having run: 15:47 (5K), 9:34 (3200), 4:24 (1600) and 1:57 (800) in HS. A 15:47 guy in HS cutting two full minutes off his 5k is a hell of a lot more impressive than 'lil Centro cutting 8 seconds off his 1500 time. ASC's achievements required vastly better coaching than UO's; not that UO's could have happened with any coach out there, but most decent college coaches can get a 4:02 guy sub-4:00. How many coaches in the world can knock 2 minutes off an already good HS 5k pr in five years? How much more belief in yourself and perseverance does it take to take that much time off your pr? Not that it's easy for the UO guys; they obviously work their asses off in practice every day, and they have pressure on them that Braun doesn't. But let's be honest, it takes a significantly tougher mental mindset to do what he did than what the UO guys have done. The UO guys may have the same toughness, but their current times don't necessarily indicate it while ASC's do. I'm impressed by the better coaching, by the greater personal belief, by the underdog. How in hell does a 9:34 guy run 13:40? I ran 9:34. I can't imagine how much greater my work ethic and confidence and desire would have to be to have run as fast as Braun; on the other hand, I can imagine going from 4:02 to 3:59 if I had run 4:02. Again, not that running sub-4:00 isn't a massive physical and mental effort and achievement, but it isn't as impressive of an achievement.

I'm more impressed by Will Leer finishing 4th at the OT coming out of d3 than by Manzano or Lomong making the team coming out of d1.

Just to add a little perspective. Braun's 9:34 was probably worth a 9:18 +/- at sea level. And who knows how he trained in high school? He was not without talent, but it's an impressive feat nonetheless.

But, let's just guess he was a 50 mile per week guy as a prep. Take him and put him at sea level in high school where most of his routine runs would be at a faster clip, and make him run 80-90 miles per week. That alone would probably be worth @ 9:00. Lots of assumptions, I know. But 9:30 guys at elevation with not a lot of training are much more talented than they appear at first blush. Just ask Pat Porter.

For an "intelligent poster", I don't think you really get the point of the thread. This was not about a progression of times, but rather about performances.

However, your assumptions about progression are elementary. Of course someone who runs 4:24 in high school is going to show more time progress than someone who has run 4:02 in high school. If Fleet or Centro dropped as much time as Braun in the mile, they would be at the world record.

Take guys that run 75-100 miles a week in high school--guys like Ritz, Hall, Don Sage. I'd say it's pretty impressive if a collegiate coach keeps them on that level or furthers them a long a little bit considering they have already been training like a collegiate athlete.

Look at Ryan Hall. He ran 4:02 as a senior, and 4:06 as a junior, after a 4:22 as a high school sophomore. Do we slam him for his "normal progression"? In fact, his high school 1500 is still his PR to this day.

Going from 4:22 to 4:06--what was the difference? He started training seriously in the summer going into his junior year. If you have a guy who runs 4:22 on 40 miles a week, you can take that runner and make them quicker by increasing the training. What do you do with a guy already running 75 miles a week and is at 4:06? A good coach needs to know how to do that. You assume good coaches take intermediate runners and make them faster. While that it is a part of it, it is not the defining characteristic as you assume.

Your guys with "normal progression", guys like Hall, have been training at a high level for years--they are not going to drop time like athletes who have not been training at that level.

Forget who they are and what division they are in, then try to answer the question. Perhaps then your response will not be ridiculously biased and meaningless.

Ha.

I stopped reading your logic when I saw that you listed Centro as an example. He ran 4:03 as a high school senior and then two years later runs 3:57 indoors (a 6 second improvement when you are already near the 4:00 Mile is HUGE) and then goes 3:36 outdoors (roughly a 3:53-3:54 mile) winning the stanford invite, then winning PAC-10's over Galen Rupp, and a long list of sub 4 milers including olympian Andrew Wheating and 3:37 man Heath. Then comes back at regionals to prove himself one more time. That is SUBSTANTIAL improvement from a 4:03 high school miler. And to make it more impressive, he came from a sophistated running family (meaning he knew what he was doing and should have less potential upside) and came into oregon as a middle man amonst super talent and rose to the top.

If you have ever been at the elite high school or top D1 level you can appreciate the challenge that can be. It is actually easier to come up with no pressure and huge upside. Have the wave of momentum to ride is an EASY ride. Why do you think so many top high school programs have their guys fade off to no mans land in college? It's more of a disadvantage to come in as a top high school runner with less upside and more expectations into D1 running. Think Acosta. Very good high school runner, very good freshman year at a very good program, but then comes a guy like Wheating like a punch in the guy. Then comes the next batch of freshmen. There are Acostas all over the country, but mostly at universities with less scrutiny so they get forgotten or lost.

Adams State guys are doing phenomenal, but they carry absolutely no pressure, train in a long distance runners paradise and frankly are running times that are jsut now in the 5K range of where Galen Rupp & Chris Derrick were in high school.

I believe that both feats are quite impressive and actually not many teams ever get to be so deep, however I believe that Adams State being D2 and pulling in good runners, but not the greatest this helps them out quite a bit. Oregon gets the studs of running every year. So for Adams State to do this with guys that were still really good in high school, but not national class, I think this holds to be really impressive.

I'm curious, what do you think the ASC guys would run at Oregon? Faster or slower? My guess is slower.

What do you think the Oregon guys would run had they gone to ASC? Faster or slower? My guess is slower.

runinto wrote:

and someone posted that centro is ineligible, which if thats true that is hilarious cause U of O is not a difficult school and also means he cant be used as evidence

This is really a stupid comment; I went to Oregon and if you think there are not hard classes and demanding Professors there (like at any University), then you are not thinking it through.

Balancing academics and running, medical treatment, recovering from a stress fracture etc., can get dicey...or merely get an incomplete in one course and bingo you are not eligible until you finish that INC. Many athletes take a minimum load during competition seasons, which leaves no room for error.

And, Lananna might well have tougher standards of academically ineligible than the NCAA.

I haven't seen or heard it confirmed that Centro is not eligible, but if that is the case, I wouldn't assume it a matter of hour tough or not tough a school is academically...

yung4evr wrote:

Impressive - maybe.....but I remember when Oregon had 4 cats under 13:35 (and two of those were under 13:20) in the 5K. I think two of the them were named Salazar and Chapa, but then again names aren't important.

Clary, McChesney, Centrowitz, Martin, Boileau.

We had 20 guys who could run under 4:08. (Not kidding)

And about 17 of them were getting no personalized coaching or attention.

Oregan > Adams State. End thread.

stillllll searching..... wrote:

Oregan > Adams State. End thread.

No one is arguing otherwise. It is too much for you to acknowledge that Adams has a pretty damn impressive distance squad for a small college with less than 3000 students?

You posted: "wait until the end of outdoor season. oregon is better in every event and every aspect. sorry d2 fans..."

As an Oregon fan, this comment is a bit offensive. What we try to be about is building the sport, not trying to demean the accomplishments of talented and hard working runners. I think most of us Oregon fans would never insinuate that Adams State is lesser than. In fact, they have not only run fabulous times this year (both Indoors and in XC), but they also abviously have excellent athletes and coaching. The more high quality programs like this that can be built, the greater it is for our sport. In parting...GO ADAMS STATE, KICK SOME BUTT!!

Oregon is just trying to loose all their fans across the country, and it's working. oh and anyone who thinks Alamosa is a 'training paradise,' it's not- it's one of the coldest places in the country, is a complete sh*thole and is nowhere near a big city

I know they are national champion caliber, but they could have another perfect scoring championship.

runinto wrote:

Oregon is just trying to loose all their fans across the country, and it's working. oh and anyone who thinks Alamosa is a 'training paradise,' it's not- it's one of the coldest places in the country, is a complete sh*thole and is nowhere near a big city

This is precisely why it is a training paradise. When elements are tough you get tough, when you don't have a lot of distraction it's pretty easy to have a lot of dedication. Examples: Kenya, Ethiopia.

Nobody is saying it's a metropolitan paradise.