if you're smart enough to get into an ivy, then you should be smart enough to not enroll there
if you're smart enough to get into an ivy, then you should be smart enough to not enroll there
Avocados Number wrote:
I suppose a coach can "tell" an admissions office whatever he or she wants, but that doesn't mean that the admissions office will go along with the coach's desire.
And yes, I'm aware that M.I.T. is a Division III school. The original poster was asking about the practices at schools with very high admissions standards, not schools that hand out athletic scholarships.
Oh, sorry. I thought the OP had just said Ivies also.
The Ivies have one recruitment standard, the rest of Div I has others. Div II and Div III have others. Very large range of schools.
He must have screwed something up or the team really hated him on his recruiting visit, or something. No way a really fast runner with 1400s doesn't get into Cornell.
jhafsodh wrote:
At Ivies, if you have certain academic standards, the rest doesn't matter if the coach has you on the sheet he submits. I think those standards are something like 1400 SAT, and top 1/3 of your highschool class. If you have those, the school won't reject you. If you don't have those, the school still might accept you, I think one of our top runners scored below 1100.
I think this describes it best, although I think the parameters are a little looser than 1400 for a strong runner. I did not see it mentioned above, but this is all highly dependent on applying via early admissions at schools where that applies. If you go through regular process, you are probably on your own.
Thanks everyone.
Well, I got my SAT scores this morning and as predicted I scored mid 600's. Not great I guess but better than I did on the PSAT.
I was thinking about trying again in June and trying one of the study books. Has anyone taken the test twice and really improved their scores?
Also, dumb question, but how do you know if you are being recruited? I'm a junior and have gotten a bunch of things in the mail and some emails. Is there some official letter, or does it mean you are being recruited if the coach contacts you?
Thanks.
Juniors who are taking challenging courses (AP and Honors) very often see improvements on the SAT and ACT. Are you reading for pleasure? Are you reviewing math concepts that may have tripped you up? Please consider doing both NOW, if you are not already doing so.
Seniors can and should take the SAT as well, so you have more time than you may think. Work hard second semester of junior year, as this will raise your GPA and very possibly help you to learn things that impact your SAT.
Receiving letters from a coach is the first step in being recruited, but it deoes not mean you are being actively recruited. When you receive phone calls and are invited to campus for a visit, you should consider yourself recruited.
Hope this helps!
If you tell us your times we can probably tell you if you are being recruited, and what level recruit you are.
Letters can mean lots of things are they questionnaires, are they personal or "dear prospective students-athlete" type? Emails are probably a good sign and keeping communication open with the coaches will help you a lot down the road.
What they're looking for in boys as juniors
1:55 or better
sub 4:20
sub 9:30
Grades - A students with a minimum top 20% in class rank.
SATS - Over 600 on all the SATs, over 650 is much better.
First, thanks everyone for posting all of this incredibly helpful information. I'm basically in his situation, just a year behind, and this thread has been an absolute treasure trove.
ivyrunner21 wrote:
What they're looking for in boys as juniors
1:55 or better
sub 4:20
sub 9:30
Grades - A students with a minimum top 20% in class rank.
SATS - Over 600 on all the SATs, over 650 is much better.
This seems reasonable at first, but that mile time at least seems fast. The outdoor IL 1500m champion last year ran a 3:49. That translates to at 4:06, and it was a senior. I hope to be below a 4:20 (aka I'm not selfishly hoping this), but don't you think they'd look at people at least a little slower than that?
On a second look, the mile and two mile times REALLY don't match up. Still though, thanks for the input, it wasn't a major mistake if any.
jim wyner (spelling?) won the 1500m. He went on to run 3:41 and qualify for NCAA nationals. he had also run a 1:48 sometime in undergrad and was on the bubble for USAs. Some other great athletes (Michael Maag, Liam Boylan Pett, Dave Nittengale) competed in the ivies very recently. I would guess there are anywhere from 4-8 athletes in each event that can run close to the regional standards in the ivy league. Its one of the more competitive conferences in DI top to bottom. You don't need to be german fernandez to score at Heps but you better get a heck of lot faster than 4:20 and 9:30. 9:30 is 14:50 5k pace which isn't anywhere close to scoring at the ivies.
gotbrains wrote:
if you're smart enough to get into an ivy, then you should be smart enough to not enroll there
And why would that be?
All the ivy plus schools have fantastic financial aid, offer a great eductation, and (if one performs well) access to the most selective employers and graduate schools.
If Ivy is that good then why do they discriminate against Jews, Arabs and Asians ?
Take tests again, score as high as you can , run as fast as you can and express extreme interest between now and July 1. If you can get them to contact you, ask them flat out "am I the type of athlete you are looking for?" and "what are my chances of getting in." They will give you an answer to both.
The operative expression is "coach's exemption." At all the top end schools there are a number of such exemptions, the specific number varying from sport to sport. Of course, there is an academic baseline that represents a minimum that a prospective exempted athlete must be above. This baseline varies from school to school, and within a given school from sport to sport.
hs distance runner wrote:
Thanks everyone.
Well, I got my SAT scores this morning and as predicted I scored mid 600's. Not great I guess but better than I did on the PSAT.
I was thinking about trying again in June and trying one of the study books. Has anyone taken the test twice and really improved their scores?
Also, dumb question, but how do you know if you are being recruited? I'm a junior and have gotten a bunch of things in the mail and some emails. Is there some official letter, or does it mean you are being recruited if the coach contacts you?
Thanks.
The math section is by far the easiest to improve your score on. It's not hard stuff for the most part; just take practice tests.
ivyrunner21 wrote:
What they're looking for in boys as juniors
1:55 or better
sub 4:20
sub 9:30
Grades - A students with a minimum top 20% in class rank.
SATS - Over 600 on all the SATs, over 650 is much better.
I wouldn't say these times are quite right. I attend an Ivy and was invited on officials at almost all of them. If you are not that fast but have great potential, i.e. you didn't run cross country in high school/only ran for a couple of years, then you can be recruited with somewhat slower times.
Those times are a good benchmark, but they don't necessarily expect you to run those as a junior. If your a solid student, those are the times that the coaches expect you to run by the end of your senior year. (Probably faster in the 2 mile, if that's your event). If you're not quite so smart, then yeah, those are the times you should probably be trying to run as a junior, given that you're not playing the "I've got great potential card".
[quote]Montesquieu wrote:
The operative expression is "coach's exemption." At all the top end schools there are a number of such exemptions, the specific number varying from sport to sport. Of course, there is an academic baseline that represents a minimum that a prospective exempted athlete must be above.[quote]
That is not true. Here is a statement by the associate director of admissions at M.I.T. in September 2009, addressing similar asssertions:
Athletes at MIT do not face a "different admissions process." There is no separate athletic admissions committee. Coaches do not get to sit with the Dean and present their students in a special meeting as at many schools. There is no policy that we admit all academically-qualified recruited athletes. Perhaps more importantly, there is no "slot" system. What is a slot system? In a major article on Division III athletics admissions in 2005, the New York Times wrote,
"Broadly, Division III colleges are separated into those that use what is customarily called a slots system and those that do not. Slots are reserved for athletes in each freshman class, a specific number that typically represents 15 percent to 30 percent of those admitted. Colleges that do not have a slots system may admit more, or fewer, recruited athletes, but there is no set number."
That is to say -- we don't hold open admissions spaces for teams/coaches, we have no quota or even any target for athletes.
That being said, we do value extracurricular talent, including athletic talent, in our admissions process. Most of MIT's full-time coaches do recruit (though this recruitment bears little resemblance to what Division I schools call recruiting). Because of stereotypes and preconceived notions, many talented student-athletes are not aware that MIT even has varsity sports, much less that we're actually pretty good (for example, a classmate of mine, Jason Szuminski '00, went on to pitch for the San Diego Padres, after completing his Aero-Astro degree). The outreach work of our coaches complements the work done by many at MIT in identifying talented prospective MIT students.
Coaches also provide insight into athletic talent, using the same mechanism that our music faculty and art faculty use to provide input on musical and artistic talent. When a prospective student-athlete fills out the "recruiting" form, it triggers a process similar to the process of a student submitting a music supplement or an arts supplement. The MIT faculty member or coach helps us to evaluate the talent and how a student might contribute to the existing communities on campus.
If I'm an athlete with a good 5K time, will MIT or Princeton ignore the fact that I have a typical Jewish last name and evaluate my application the same as if I were a Gentile ?
cats cats cats wrote:
jim wyner (spelling?) won the 1500m. He went on to run 3:41 and qualify for NCAA nationals. he had also run a 1:48 sometime in undergrad and was on the bubble for USAs. Some other great athletes (Michael Maag, Liam Boylan Pett, Dave Nittengale) competed in the ivies very recently. I would guess there are anywhere from 4-8 athletes in each event that can run close to the regional standards in the ivy league. Its one of the more competitive conferences in DI top to bottom. You don't need to be german fernandez to score at Heps but you better get a heck of lot faster than 4:20 and 9:30. 9:30 is 14:50 5k pace which isn't anywhere close to scoring at the ivies.
You have to remember though, we're talking about times for an HS junior. You can tell me they don't expect kids to be able to cut off 20 seconds in 6 years, which would be a kid from outside of their "recruiting range" that ended up being a Hep champion.
Do you think they take into account the difficulty/prestigiousness of the high school? I'm in a really good high school that doesn't grade super easily.
hsmiler16 wrote:
Do you think they take into account the difficulty/prestigiousness of the high school? I'm in a really good high school that doesn't grade super easily.
Difficulty, yes. Your high school should send a copy of the high school profile to each university you apply for (regardless if it is an Ivy or not). That gives the university admissions officer an idea of how "tough" the school is. However, if a lot of people from your high school apply to the Ivies every year, the admissions people will probably have a good idea of how academically challenging the high school is (examples I can think of are Lawrenceville (NJ), Styvesant (NYC), and Lexington High (MA)).
As for prestigiousness... I don't think so. But then again, I went to a rural, public high school where only one person a year applies to an Ivy (if lucky).