The Van Aaken Method - Looking for ideas

I think variety is what is best about EVA training. I always run for time instead of distance. Today when I took off I knew I only had 125 to run in order to get showered and to a lunch date. So I ran a route and then made turns when I wanted to know where this road goes or comes out at. I do finish all of my runs with either a pickup or strides (today was 900 meters in 3:18). I have 400, 600, 800, 900, 1000 & 1200 measured from all possible four (4) directions of my finish lines. Then with an active walk (moving exercises) I am finished. Even though I know EVA would hate it I enjoy playing with my pulse monitor and GPS. I try to guess what my pulse is at and try to keep it there regardless of the terrain, stops, etc. I do the same with distance using the GPS. A game that keeps my training fresh and enjoyable.

Vladimir i do love variety i guess thats the appeal learning to love running again in the 2nd half of last year i just stopped enjoying it. But i know it would return and now its good and am enjoying it again.

I have a GPS a Garmin with a Heart rate monitor.

Hope you enjoyed your lunch date

So much of what was written in the US about the van Aaken system made it seem very precise and regimented. One of the things I've loved about your posts is that in application is was much more free flowing.

Not sure if nightowl is still out there reading this site, but if she is I want to tell her of another nice workout for her in the marathon. It is a long workout as well as a chance to work on your form when you are tired. Pick a time (on SaturdayI did a four hour with a friend). We just ran a minute and then walked a minute. Sounds very easy, but is really a nice workout and very enjoyable. In our case we went out for two hours and ten minutes on a bike path and came back in two hours and seven minutes. We covered a little over 20 miles in the workout. So we were probalby running around 7:30 per mile and walking around 17:00 per mile. A good effort and no real problems in the days that followed. Keep in mind to work on your form during the runs and make sure you do not stop running or start running too suddenly. It is also a good way to see if your shoes are going to give you and problems during the race as well if well planned you can try to work on your fuel during the workout. Enjoy.

Most of VanAaken's ideas, like most of Lydiard's ideas are now a good bit behind the times and should be read more like an outdated history book, with some perspective.

Fasting is just plain silly (now we know that actually nothing will make you fatter faster), and the idea that 130HR is magical or even preferable for training 9or to improve fat burning) is just plain wrong. You as 4:36 marathoner will not destroy your chances if you run some 2' 400m reps. Nor are you required to tackle absurdly long snail-paced long runs to knock an hour or so off your personal best.

You're generalizing. Nothing in the van Aaken system prohibits, for example, 400 meter reps or requires "absurdly" long runs.

dsrunner has the day off wrote:

Fasting is just plain silly (now we know that actually nothing will make you fatter faster)

Maybe you should ask Nolan Sheehan about that.

dsrunner has the day off wrote:

Most of VanAaken's ideas, like most of Lydiard's ideas are now a good bit behind the times and should be read more like an outdated history book, with some perspective.

I agree.

Vladamir admittedly did not run well at all, so what can he offer of benefit.

Norpoth did not have any endurance, despite the (slow) endurance type of program. He always relied on his kick, even following when he ran against Prefontaine, who had no use for him because of his whimpy attitude.

But which one had the Olympic hardware?

I do agree that my times under EVA were not what I had hoped for, but perhaps my goals were too high or I just did not have what it takes to make it to the top level. The thing to remember is that EVA saw himself as a general conditioning individual for the masses rather than a coach for elite runners. This was started by a young lady who wanted some information on EVA training. I still stand by the statement that it is a great training method for anyone wanting to extend and enjoy their running experience.

history in the making wrote:

dsrunner has the day off wrote:

Most of VanAaken's ideas, like most of Lydiard's ideas are now a good bit behind the times and should be read more like an outdated history book, with some perspective.

I agree.

Vladamir admittedly did not run well at all, so what can he offer of benefit.

Norpoth did not have any endurance, despite the (slow) endurance type of program. He always relied on his kick, even following when he ran against Prefontaine, who had no use for him because of his whimpy attitude.

I hope this the above is tongue in cheek.

How can someone with a big kick not have endurance? How can a runner with a big kick be a "whimp"?

Sounds like a typical Pre "tough guy" post.

I am not sure if I can totally agree with the first statement. Even in his reply Vladimir restates that he did not run well, but he did not say that he did break 2:20 at least twice that I know of. Maybe not a great time, but I would trade it for my pr of 2:34 and I am quite sure others would as well.

I'm aware that some of the posters above are probably trolls, but I thought I'd respond so that people who don't realize that aren't fooled.

Vladimir was a 2:16 marathoner, I believe - maybe 2:14,I'll go back and double check - and he ran it when that time really meant something. If you're looking down your nose at what he does now, you're probably one third his age.

I used Van Aaken to lower my marathon/10k from 2:50/35 to 2:27/32. Slowing down and going longer works. If you don't believe it and aren't willing to test it out, don't. If you want to try something different that might make a big difference, if you have that courage, then I will tell you you will improve. Even if you don't though, the cost will be relatively little. It's hard to get injured at MP + 50% or whatever. You won't lose much in fitness, either, especially aerobic fitness. If you do the strides faithfully and a little speed work, you shouldn't lose much speed either.

I'm personally not so impressed with the 'new' training methods. Aside from all the supplementary stuff that runners do these days, the 'new' training is really old wine in new wine skin. Also, when I hear about super-secret stuff that the Moroccans or Spaniards or whomever is doing, I think, that the real innovation is that much of the training routes the runner through the pharmacy. No thanks.

Pre

1500M 3:38.1 1973

2000M 5:01.4 1975

5000M 13:21.87 1974

Olympics

1972 5000M 4th

Norpoth

1500M 3:37.8 1971

2000M 4:57.8 1966

5000M 13:20.49 1973

Olympics

1964 5000M 2nd Silver

1968 1500M 4th

1972 5000M 6th

It is interesting to note that in his last 5000M Norpoth set a personal record and beat Pre.

vladimir yes i am still here and thank you for the latest suggestion which i will try out later this week.

I am certainly a believer in the slow down in training to speed up in racing.So it will be a route i shall follow.

I have been doing some of them 350m run 50m walks and have run todays 8.4 miler 20 seconds a mile quicker than last weeks 6.3 milers for the same Heart rate

I shall certainly be following this method.

Do appreciate your advice

Good points Link.

I think that Vlad was a 2:16 marathoner. At that time

period 2:20 was a national class if not a world elite

number I thought.

I know that the marathon was not Ron Clarke's forte, but he ran a few and never got below a high 2:20 despite a host of world record runs from somewhere around the 2-10 mile range.

The OP's goal as stated in the first post can be met by following training along the van Aaken lines.

As disparate as they are on some levels, I can draw a line between comments from Marcus O'Sullivan in his recent Flotrack interview and some of the threads in this conversation... specifically, the changes imposed on his post-HS training by Donal Walsh (as noted, 2nd to Pre in NCAA XC), and his discovery at 32 of the benefits or training with a heart rate monitor. Worth the 12 minutes to watch/listen.

another runner wrote:

I am not sure if I can totally agree with the first statement. Even in his reply Vladimir restates that he did not run well, but he did not say that he did break 2:20 at least twice that I know of. Maybe not a great time, but I would trade it for my pr of 2:34 and I am quite sure others would as well.

Well then I revise my remark about vladamir. And vladamir I give you a lashing for being so timid, which would give people the wrong impression of results.

I stand by my statement of Norpoth however. He was a week whimpy runner, who always sat and never had the strength to push the pace on his own. Granted that was not Van Aaken's issue but Norpoth's.

I do have Van Aaken's book and have referenced it frequently.

Not to worry, those are times that are two lifetimes ago and I am no where close to them nowdays, however I still enjoy running just as much. I do not view Harold as a weak runner, but rather one who knew that he was better off sitting and kicking if he wanted victory. If you look at EVA training it is perfect for that concept. Most every day we did a long run followed by a pickup. Not much different from what Harold did in races. If both Pre and Bill Bowerman were alive today it would be great to ask them about the concept. Bill always wanted Pre to not push the early pace and if you look at his 4th at the 5k he did not push the early pace. I feel there are four ways to win a race: 1) go out hard and try to burn out the others. 2) go out at a pace that you feel will win the race and hold it. This is not as easy as it sounds as you must know exactly what shape the others are in as well as confident if some one else uses concept "1" from above. 3) go our with the lead pack and put in accelerations to discourage others. Must be practiced in advance and you will need to take others by surprise (not same distance or pace of a pick up). 4) sit and kick. All of these must be practiced in training and they are not just for first place. They can be used to win age group events and beat others that are your running "peers". Bottom line enjoy the run for someday we will no longer be able to participate.