Making 800 guys out of 400 guys

SPEED, SPEED, SPEED. Don't neglect their speed training, then the rest will fall in place.

I'm the poster boy for the opposite of this approach. I did not realize how important maintaining my speed was when I switched events and switched coaches after college. I was a very good 45 second 400m runner but was pretty much on a plateau in that event, so I switched to the 800m on the assumption that my 45-second speed would trump the raw speed of 99% of the 800 guys out there and so maybe I'd have a chance to be pretty decent in the 800...

I trusted my new coach entirely, but on hindsight the GIANT mistake was adding the big miles to my program... yes, I got a lot more aerobically fit but it came at a huge cost to my speed (and to my enjoyment of the sport for that matter!). After three solid years of training HARD (incl. big 13-15 mile runs on Sundays, lots of long intervals/short rest periods, tempo runs, the whole shebang) and I could only manage 1:50 flat in the 800... and meanwhile my 400m time had slipped to 48, my old high school time (and that was at maximum effort in races!!) The irony here was that I had also ran 1:50 my first year training for the 800, and that was without a bunch of miles yet and in a shortened season! So I basically busted my butt overtraining, wasted 3 important years in my mid-20s athletic prime, and in the end only ran as fast as I had when I started the 800 experiment. So big distance didn't work in my case, and the "natural" speed pretty much disappeared too. =(

So the moral of this story is DON'T NEGLECT THE 400 GUYS' SPEED TRAINING, don't pile on so many miles that you're transforming a powerful and fast person into a slow distance guy, and while trusting your coach be sure to think a little bit on your own too... On hindsight I definitely should have bailed on that training program midway through the second year. But I didn't, and I can't get those years back.

SPEED BABY!! Good luck training. =)

Gotta take the team consideration in on how many guys are capable of running the 50. compared to the sub 2 guys[/quote]

I always thought the athlete should come 1st

Here's a question: how long should it theoretically take for a 50 flat runner to get down to 1:50 flat?

Right now I've run 50.10/2:02

How long would it take for me to get where I should be based on my 400 time (1:50?)? Keep in mind that I am skinny so not a huge powerful 400 guy

I want to really focus on the 800 but I only have one year left in college so if a big improvement isn't possible I might not do it.

I believe you may be a former co-worker of mine from a certain Minnesota running store...

In my day the 800 guys were made out of 200 guys.

What you are looking for is the stride of the 200 meter runner, an economical sprinter.

You use alot of floating in the 800, it is an exercise in efficiency & pain management.

Use a steady diet of 200 meter intervals with short rest.

10x200 in 27 w a minute jog

also make sure to break down the 800 into 4 basic sections for race pace. Otherwise you will have guys hearing their splits at 400 and thinking there is no way they can do another lap at that pace and they will ease up.

I assume that we are talking about high school here since you mentioned working with Footlocker caliber athletes. If you coach at a school that has an abundance of 50.x quarter milers, go shake the hand of the sprint coach. Most schools (especially the small ones) are lucky to get one 50.x guy per year. If you have a whole bunch of these guys running around, then some of them might want to come up. In my experience, however, kids that can go 50.x in the open 400 think of themselves exclusively as sprinters and most would never dream of moving up. Most 50.x kids are the top 400m runner at their school. Why would they want to move up and possibly not be as successful when they are already running better than anybody they know?

If you do get kids who show interest, you will need to do something that will get them to perform relatively well over 800m one of their first times out. Otherwise they will just want to bag it and go back to the 200/400 combo. Try to get them on an early season 4x8 or DMR. That can sometimes hook a kid. Plus, they are more likely to push hard for an entire 800 if they know that they have teammates counting on them.

There are a few workouts that I believe will help 400 guys develop some staying power for the 800. There is a major caveat here: try to keep the training as similar as possible to their previous experiences with 400m training. In my experience, a 50.x guy will be able to go 2:02-2:04 pretty easily. So, to get them to believe that a 1:55-1:57 is possible, they will need to see something better than those times pretty soon after starting to train for the 800. Here is what I would do to take a 200/400 type kid and change him to a 400/800 type kid:

1. Develop the ability to run hard for 2 minutes. This is a mental skill as much as physical. You can start with a 20-25 minute progression run that builds to the last 2 minutes at a hard effort. This may be your only true "aerobic" workout for the week. Once the athlete has gotten comfortable with that type of workout, he can run something along the lines of 3-4 x 2 minutes hard 3 minutes easy.

2. Once those workouts have been mastered (hopefully within 4-5 weeks) try adding a workout of 4 x 600 with full, or nearly full recovery. Shoot for 10-12 seconds per 400 slower than current 400m race pace. If your 50.x kid is in pre season, he may be in 52-54 second shape. This means he would be coming through the 400 in somewhere between 62 and 66 seconds and finishing in 1:33-1:39. This would probably be the hardest workout of the week for this guy. You could also do a workout of 2-3 x 1000 at around 80 pace. Your 400 runner would absolutely hate these and you wouldn't want to do them too early in the cycle. Take adequate recovery.

3. If you wanted a second "aerobic" workout for the week, you could do something like 10 x 30 seconds hard (somewhere around 800 pace) with a 90 second easy run in between for a total of 20 minutes of aerobic running.

4. Make sure to keep the runner's training as similar as possible to his previous 400m training. Remeber, he has already had a fair amount of success at that event. To radical of a change would likely make him lose confidence and desire to continue with 800m training.

Nope, never been to Minnesota. =(

I know Gary Reed moved from the 400 to the 800, and of the very key things that I've heard about the situation is that it was made absolutly sure that he had tapped out his 400 potential. Its not a good idea to move an athlete before this stage, because you will be wasting potential speed that he/she will not get back after serious aerobic training starts.

2 Things I've seen that I agree with 100%

1. Do NOT pile on mileage thinking this will increase their aerobic power over 2 laps of racing.

2. Keep their training similar to 400m training.

But tweak #2 a bit to get them psychologically prepared to get through 2 laps. They probably think 1 lap is bad enough right now.

During the season (about 1/4 in to the season), run "broken" 500s 1st, leading to broken 600s in the middle of the season, then even broken 800s eventually near the end of the season.

3-4 x Broken 500s: 300m in 45-48, 45-60 sec recover (maybe jog 100m) then 200m 30-32.

3-4 x broken 600s: 300m in 45-48, same recovery as 500s, then another 300m in 45-48.

Before doing broken 800s, get a workout or 2 of straight up 500s in 78-80.

Then, 2-3 x broken 800s: 500m (75s....60 sec recovery) then 3x100m at 15s or faster, 30 sec recov.\

Full recoveries (5-10 mins) between sets for all.

Progressive runs (maybe 2x a week) on the longer end of training (3-4 miles...maybe even starting as low as 2 miles)

Still throw in pure speed 2-3 times a week (100s in 13, 50m flying starts)

It worked for me making a 51.3 guy into a 1:55 in one season last year. Mileage probably never exceeded 15-18 miles/week.

I have the same experience and have been battling some doubts even as I progressively switched back to a more 400m type training for 800m. But your post just nailed it for me. Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks.

To dsrunner I applaud the way you put Teter's statements on her 3k/5k strength-based 800m training. Not that this approach is always wrong, but for Teter it might be what caused all her physical problems. I believe Steve Sherer faced the same dilemma while trying to adapt to Gagliano's approach (which I reiterate is not necessarily a wrong approach, just not for all 800m runners), and eventually broke free to train more like 400/800 type and proceeded to run 1:47/3:36.

The Letsrun johnson brothers will see Teter's statement as authenticatiJn of John Kellogg's philosophy, but for the sprinter type 800m runners Kellogg's approach is probably kryptonite. Respecting each person's unique make-up is all too critical in 800m training.

Lot of good advice in this thread. When I was reading the first two paragraphs of Coach B's reply I remembered an incident from my high school career. Especially the part about how to get them to push hard the entire 800.

We had a running back on our winter track team. As a freshman he ran the 55 and the 300. He was much better at the 300. As a sophomore the sprint coach talked him into running a couple of 600 races to help his endurance for the 300. He immediately became the best 600 runner on the team amongst those who ran it. But he couldn't qualify for the class meets.

During the running back's junior year, the distance runners were talked into the goal of seeing how many events they could qualify for the class meets in. The first race against one of us he ran a PR by one second and qualified for the class meet but lost the race. In his second race against a distance guy running the 600, I took the race out hard and ran away from him. His pride kicked in and he ran the middle of the race really hard. As you might expect, I died and he out leaned me. The point of the story is that he ran a PR by 4 seconds learning to run fast enough to get 4th in the state race that year. He later said it had never occurred to him that he was supposed to or could hurt that much without dying.