Authentic Training Log - Seb Coe

malmo wrote:

flamboyant wrote:

Malmo,

Don't you get the impression you are full of contradictions... only yesterday you were supporting Martin and telling me to do my research!

I really don't pay much attention to your posts, kid. And your point?

I've already stated my point, but here it is again, in case you didn't see it the first time:

"I readily admit to being biased on the issue, and there are a couple of reasons why it is so:

- I consider claiming you did a lower mileage than actually was the case is a form of self-promotion... 'Look at what I achieved, and I wasn't even training that much'; as I've said it all amounts to creating a mystique of the prodigy runner, and denying the amount of hard work it takes to get there.

- However, I don't particularly consider Coe and his dad are the main perpetuators of that mystique... but it all breaks down when other people start using Coe's training as an example of the 'less is more' approach. Horwill is frequently guilty of that: he'll try to translate Coe's low-mileage approach to long-distance running and will start making outrageous claims (i.e. you can run a world class marathon on 70/80 miles a week!!!). Now this really gets up my nose. To compensate for the low-mileage, Horwill will have his athletes doing outrageously hard sessions: he often mentions a 10M at half-marathon pace session... Well if I could do 10M at half-marathon pace in the course of a week's training, assuming that I am training to set a half-marathon pb, I would quite gladly carry on for the extra 3M and set that pb there and then!

There's no denying Coe was a great athlete, but when you get quoted weeks of 36M, you have to start asking yourself questions... And when other coaches start to use this example to promote their own low-mileage approaches to long-distance running, you can't help but feel this is doing more harm to distance running than good. Kids think (on a very basic level): I'm doing the same mileage as Seb Coe, yet he's world class and I'm nowehere... He must be a prodigy, and I'm not. Then they give up..."

your posts are very intelligent flamboyant, I'm sure malmo does read them. I suspect that he rather admires you and finds you intriguing. malmo probably loves your name too, flamboyant, in a kind of Homo erotic way.

Why thank you JonnyO

By the way malmo, I may not be as ancient as you, but at 43, I somewhat resent being called 'kid'

see, malmo really does like you, if he is calling you kid it shows he is fond of you in a protective kind of way.

Yeah, well... I love you too JonnyO

because I'm sexy? or because I'm funny and Intelligent?

funny, yes.... funny.

LOL, you funny too flamboyant

Ok,

The way I read it is Malmo agrees that Coe ran more milage than posted by Peter but disagrees that 1984 was an easier Olympics than 2000. This is not contradicting himself but rather taking issues separately and addressing the issue rather than committing the logical fallacy of "attacking the man". He is allowed to agree with flamboyant on one issue and disagree on a separate issue. Not that he needs my permission.

About the second issue. Everyone talked about doing research but no one did it. Here are the facts.

1984

8/4 800 Trial

8/5 800 Quarter

8/6 800 Semi

8/7 800 Final

8/10 1500 Trial

8/11 1500 Semi

8/12 1500 Final

2000

9/23 800 Trial

9/25 1500 Trial @ 10:40 am

9/25 800 Semi @9:35 pm

9/27 1500 semi 6:30 pm

9/27 800 final 8:20 pm

9/29 1500 Final

Conclusions: One less heat in the 800 in 2000.

2000 had two races a day twice but the first hardly counts as almost 12 hours separated them. The second would be tough with less than two hours before the 8 final. Now at least you guys can argue with the facts behind you.

Flamboyant:

i remember reading an interview with coe after the '85 track season and they asked him to give details about his training. he stated up to 65 miles a week plus interval sessions during the base phase, so if you include warmups, cooldowns and the continuous recovery jogs, well then you got a whole lot more. cram also described his training in a similar way xx miles per week plus interval sessions.

I dispute the low mileage totals. My friend Pat invited me to stay at his place to watch Coe do workouts at York's track. I watched Coe run his 200s...simply awesome...so I will give him his due for that. But, Pat, who is from Elmhurst area, watched Seb running more than once on the loops that York runs segment runs on and Pat says that Seb was running about 5 miles on each of the two time he saw Coe run in the mornings. Now, you can couple that with the littel clinic that Peter Coe spoke at for the Kinney Regional XC meet in Elmhurst the previous fall in which Peter said almost verbatum this: "I don't consider morning runs as real training." Some coach, I think he was a coach, an older guy, asked why. Peter said, "Anything slower than 6 minute pace has no value." So, you can say what you want, supporters of mega-intensity training without mileage, but I believe Seb was putting in the miles without counting them. No, I don't think he was running a 100 per week, but he sure wasn't running 30 miles per week his whole career, as some people argue. You also gotta realize that Coe was purposely trying to psyche out his competitors by making them think he was a genetic superman, that they had no chance a man with his talent. There is a lot of mental gamesmanship that takes place in the world of competitive atheltics, no doubt.

Been there,

Thanks for the games schedules... in my modest opinion, it would have been very hard to qualify for both finals in the Sydney Olympics, given that -as you have pointed out- the 1500m semis were 2 hours before the 1500m finals.

I was wrong in thinking there were more qualifying rounds though...

The real question is, of course, would Coe have had an easier or harder time qualifying (and achieving what he did) in 2000? i.e. what were the qualifying times in each rounds....

Martin,

You have gone very quiet on the issue of Coe's mileage...

Did you add up those weeks?

He's too busy right now, when he has finished work, he has a whole mountain of humble pie to eat through.

He will be back posting again in a few weeks when his bruised ego has healed.

Sydney OG

Official Results - 800 METRES - Men - Round 1

Heat 1 - Saturday, September 23, 2000 - 10:45      

1  2    Longo Andrea ITA 1:46.32 Q  

2  3    Rodal Vebjørn NOR 1:46.76 Q  

3  8    McIlroy James GBR 1:47.44 q  

4  1    Oravec Roman CZE 1:47.66  

5  5    Stojanov Vanco MKD 1:47.71  

6  7    Kenah Rich USA 1:47.85  

7  4    Kim Soon-Hyung KOR 1:48.49 (SB)

  6    Alkafraini Mohammad JOR DQ  

Heat 2 - Saturday, September 23, 2000 - 10:52

1  6    Schumann Nils GER 1:47.76 Q  

2  7    Saïd-Guerni Djabir ALG 1:47.95 Q  

3  3    Hatungimana Arthémon BUR 1:48.14  

4  2    Whitmarsh Zach CAN 1:48.42  

5  4    Matthews David IRL 1:48.77  

6  8    Hart Andrew GBR 1:48.78  

7  5    Naikelekelevesi Isireli FIJ 1:49.61  

Heat 3 - Saturday, September 23, 2000 - 10:59

1  6    Sepeng Hezekiél RSA 1:47.46 Q  

2  1    Hecini Adem ALG 1:47.62 Q  

3  4    Mutua Joseph Mwengi KEN 1:47.86  

4  7    Bogdanov Dmitriy RUS 1:48.14  

5  5    Parra Roberto ESP 1:48.19  

6  8    True Robert LBR 1:48.79  

7  3    Belhadi Mohamed Habib TUN 1:49.14  

8  2    Duvane Jorge MOZ 1:52.97  

Heat 4 - Saturday, September 23, 2000 - 11:06  

1  3    Kipketer Wilson DEN 1:45.57 Q  

2  2    Dube Glody BOT 1:46.17 Q (PB)

3  7    Botha Johan RSA 1:46.91 q  

4  1    Mutakanyi Crispen ZIM 1:47.66  

5  8    Cerezo José Manuel ESP 1:48.11  

6  4    Mastrov Artyom RUS 1:49.89  

7  5    Roberts Ian GUY 1:52.32  

8  6    Watts Marvin JAM 1:59.97 q  

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Heat 5 - Saturday, September 23, 2000 - 11:13    

1  4    Pelepyagin Pavel BLR 1:46.67 Q  

2  3    Nduwimana Jean-Patrick BUR 1:46.78 Q  

3  5    Haïda Mahjoub MAR 1:47.14 q  

4  8    Yiampoy William KEN 1:47.35 q  

5  6    Pires João POR 1:47.61  

6  1    Yousuf Abdu I QAT 1:53.23  

7  7    Ismail Naseer MLD 1:56.67  

8  2    Bagirov Faig AZE 1:57.39  

Heat 6 - Saturday, September 23, 2000 - 11:20    

1  2    Borzakovskiy Yuriy RUS 1:45.39 Q  

2  7    Kimutai Japheth KEN 1:45.60 Q  

3  3    Cremer Grant AUS 1:45.86 q (SB)

4  1    Korányi Balázs HUN 1:46.21 q (SB)

5  6    Woodward Bryan USA 1:47.64  

6  8    Jeloodarzadeh Sedei Mahdi IRN 1:47.91  

7  4    Haidara Mohamed S. Naji BHR 1:56.64  

  5    Yagoub Babiker Mohammed SUD DNS  

Heat 7 - Saturday, September 23, 2000 - 11:27  

1  2    Tighazomine Khalid MAR 1:46.33 Q  

2  8    Bucher André SUI 1:46.51 Q  

3  4    Lacis Viktors LAT 1:46.94 q (SB)

4  3    dos Santos Osmar Barbosa BRA 1:47.05 q  

5  7    Browne Milton BAR 1:47.63 (SB)

6  6    Kahan Nathan BEL 1:47.69  

7  5    Stroubákos Panayiótis GRE 1:47.96  

Heat 8 - Saturday, September 23, 2000 - 11:34    

1  7    Botha Werner RSA 1:47.83 Q  

2  6    Chehibi Mouhssin MAR 1:48.51 Q  

3  1    Som Bram NED 1:48.58  

4  2    McCarthy Kris AUS 1:48.92  

5  5    Everett Mark USA 1:49.77  

6  4    Owor Paskar UGA 1:49.99  

7  8    Cerches Vitalie MOL 1:52.15  

8  3    Purevsuren Puntsagosor MGL 1:56.29  

Official Results - 800 METRES - Men - Semi-Final

   

1  1    Schumann Nils GER 1:44.22 Q (PB)

2  5    Bucher André SUI 1:44.38 Q  

3  2    Dube Glody BOT 1:44.70 q (NR)

4  6    Sepeng Hezekiél RSA 1:44.85 q  

5  4    Yiampoy William KEN 1:45.88  

6  7    McIlroy James GBR 1:46.39  

7  3    Rodal Vebjørn NOR 1:48.73  

8  8    Chehibi Mouhssin MAR 1:49.88  

Heat 2 - Monday, September 25, 2000 - 23:12    

1  5    Saïd-Guerni Djabir ALG 1:44.19 Q  

2  3    Borzakovskiy Yuriy RUS 1:44.33 Q (PB)

3  1    Tighazomine Khalid MAR 1:45.38 (PB)

4  2    Botha Johan RSA 1:45.49  

5  6    Kimutai Japheth KEN 1:45.64  

6  4    Nduwimana Jean-Patrick BUR 1:46.98  

7  8    Pelepyagin Pavel BLR 1:50.37  

8  7    Cremer Grant AUS 1:52.57  

Heat 3 - Monday, September 25, 2000 - 23:29      

1  3    Kipketer Wilson DEN 1:44.22 Q  

2  4    Longo Andrea ITA 1:44.49 Q  

3  6    Hecini Adem ALG 1:45.08  

4  7    Haïda Mahjoub MAR 1:46.35  

5  5    Botha Werner RSA 1:46.53  

6  2    Lacis Viktors LAT 1:47.24  

7  8    Korányi Balázs HUN 1:47.35  

8  9    Watts Marvin JAM 1:47.68  

8  1    dos Santos Osmar Barbosa BRA 1:47.68

Official Results - 800 METRES - Men - Final

Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 20:20

1  2    Schumann Nils GER 1:45.08    

2  3    Kipketer Wilson DEN 1:45.14    

3  5    Saïd-Guerni Djabir ALG 1:45.16    

4  7    Sepeng Hezekiél RSA 1:45.29    

5  4    Bucher André SUI 1:45.40    

6  8    Borzakovskiy Yuriy RUS 1:45.83    

7  1    Dube Glody BOT 1:46.24    

  6    Longo Andrea ITA DQ    

Official Results - 1500 METRES - Men - Round 1

Heat 1 - Monday, September 25, 2000 - 10:40      

1     El Guerrouj Hicham MAR 3:38.57 Q  

2     Redolat José Antonio ESP 3:38.66 Q  

3     Boulahfane Kamal ALG 3:39.01 Q  

4     Mayock John GBR 3:39.08 Q  

5     Mekonnen Hailu ETH 3:39.09 Q  

6     Stember Michael USA 3:39.13 Q  

7     Achon Julius UGA 3:39.40 q  

8     Chirchir William KEN 3:40.22  

9     Nolan James IRL 3:40.50  

10     Radomirovic Darko YUG 3:43.57  

11     Howarth Nick AUS 3:45.46  

12     Zorko Branko CRO 3:46.16  

13     Munthali Francis MAW 3:46.34 (NR)

Heat 2 - Monday, September 25, 2000 - 10:48  

1     Baala Mehdi FRA 3:40.35 Q  

2     Lagat Bernard KEN 3:40.42 Q  

3     Higuero Juan Carlos ESP 3:40.60 Q  

4     Sullivan Kevin CAN 3:40.80 Q  

5     Zegeye Daniel ETH 3:40.91 Q  

6     Jennings Gabriel USA 3:40.96 Q  

7     Kaouch Adil MAR 3:41.06  

8     Khaldi Mohamed ALG 3:41.16  

9     Shabunin Vyacheslav RUS 3:41.52  

10     Geshko Ivan UKR 3:41.80  

11     Sharangabo Alexis RWA 3:44.06  

12     Chipako Chungu ZAM 3:49.79  

13     Ebatela Nvó José Luís GEQ 4:06.14  

     Whiteman Anthony GBR DNF  

Heat 3 - Monday, September 25, 2000 - 10:56

1     Ngeny Noah KEN 3:38.03 Q  

2     Morceli Noureddine ALG 3:38.41 Q  

3     Díaz Andrés Manuel ESP 3:38.54 Q  

4     Baba Youssef MAR 3:38.68 Q  

5     Alemu Berhanu ETH 3:38.79 Q  

6     Maazouzi Driss FRA 3:38.88 Q  

7     Pyrah Jason USA 3:38.94 q  

8     Koers Marko NED 3:39.16 q  

9     Yagoub Babiker Mohammed SUD 3:39.52 q  

10     de Souza Hudson Santos BRA 3:39.70 q  

11     Graffin Andrew GBR 3:39.75 q  

12     Aden Mohamed Ibrahim SOM 3:40.33  

13     Silva Rui POR 3:41.93  

14     Ould Bidjel Sidi Mohamed MTN 4:03.74 (PB)

Official Results - 1500 METRES - Men - Semi-Final

Heat 1 - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 18:30      

1     Ngeny Noah KEN 3:39.29 Q  

2     Sullivan Kevin CAN 3:39.66 Q  

3     Pyrah Jason USA 3:40.04 Q  

4     Baba Youssef MAR 3:40.16 Q  

5     Maazouzi Driss FRA 3:40.23 Q  

6     Achon Julius UGA 3:40.32  

7     Mekonnen Hailu ETH 3:40.92  

8     de Souza Hudson Santos BRA 3:41.00  

9     Stember Michael USA 3:42.30  

10     Graffin Andrew GBR 3:42.72  

11     Redolat José Antonio ESP 3:45.46  

12     Morceli Noureddine ALG 4:00.78  

Heat 2 - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 18:40    

1     El Guerrouj Hicham MAR 3:37.60 Q  

2     Lagat Bernard KEN 3:37.84 Q  

3     Zegeye Daniel ETH 3:38.08 Q  

4     Baala Mehdi FRA 3:38.15 Q  

5     Higuero Juan Carlos ESP 3:38.37 Q  

6     Díaz Andrés Manuel ESP 3:38.41 q  

7     Mayock John GBR 3:38.68 q  

8     Koers Marko NED 3:39.42  

9     Jennings Gabriel USA 3:40.10  

10     Alemu Berhanu ETH 3:41.09  

11     Boulahfane Kamal ALG 3:43.98  

12     Yagoub Babiker Mohammed SUD 3:50.60  

Official Results - 1500 METRES - Men - Final

Friday, September 29, 2000 - 20:00

1     Ngeny Noah KEN 3:32.07   (CR)

2     El Guerrouj Hicham MAR 3:32.32    

3     Lagat Bernard KEN 3:32.44    

4     Baala Mehdi FRA 3:34.14    

5     Sullivan Kevin CAN 3:35.50    

6     Zegeye Daniel ETH 3:36.78    

7     Díaz Andrés Manuel ESP 3:37.27    

8     Higuero Juan Carlos ESP 3:38.91    

9     Mayock John GBR 3:39.41    

10     Pyrah Jason USA 3:39.84    

11     Maazouzi Driss FRA 3:45.46    

12     Baba Youssef MAR 3:56.08

Coe Fan -- You meticuluos sob you. Nice work.. Looks like getting to the finals would have been a breeze for Coe but that 8 final would have been a bitch given the short rest time. Of course I'm a bit biased because I've always been a shitty doubler. I'm sure there are people out there, I've coached some, who can PR twice in two hours.

I watched Coe run 3:48.95 on tv when he was an unknown in the US. He was a great inspiration to me as I grew as a runner. I think he was one of the greatest ever -- no matter how many miles he ran per week. Could he have outlegged ELG or Morcelli or Ngeny. Doubtful. I don't care though. I don't know how many times he brokes the World Record comined in the 8, 1000 15 and mile but it was a lot. I respect him as much as any miler ever.

I guess he would have run a bit faster these days cause in most Golden-League and Grand-Prix Races the Rabbits go out at WR-Pace + more Competition, much more chances to run really fast.I have his 1:41 on Tape and it's incredible, almost alone on the track , this guy was flying.

Even the Super-Kenyans don't look as efficient as Seb when i watch them running and that's what he trained for, to make running easy.

a bit more stuff.

Trying to track down the results of the heats...

Men's 800m. Final. Olympic Games 1984

1. Joaquim CRUZ (BRA) 1:43:00

2. Sebastian COE (GBR) 1:43:64

3. Earl JONES (USA) 1:43:83

4. Billy KONCHELLAH (KEN) 1:44:03

5. Doanta SABIA (ITA) 1:44:53

6. Edwin KOECH (KEN) 1:44:86

7. Johnny GRAY (USA) 1:47:89

8. Steve OVETT (GBR) 1:52:28

Men's 1500m. Final. Olympic Games 1984

1. Sebastian COE (GBR) 3:32:53

2. Steve CRAM (GBR) 3:33:40

3. Jose ABASCAL (SPA) 3:34:30

4. Joseph CHESHIRE (KEN) 3:34:52

5. Jim SPIVEY (USA) 3:36:07

6. Peter WIRZ (SWI) 3:36:97

7. Andres VERA (SPA) 3:37:02

8. Omer KHALIFA (SUD) 3:37:11

I guess these do clearly show I was wrong: it is certainly not harder getting into both finals nowadays (time wise, or through the number of heats). However the double was virtually impossible in Sidney because of the proximity between the 1500m semis, and the 800m finals...

I feel I am still making a valid point though: my contention is that a solid mileage base will help with coping with the number of heats for someone attempting such a double. I strongly suspect current mid-distance runner cover more mileage than Coe did for that very reason (but there may well be others too).... Coe's quoted figures are -at best- as we have seen suspect and, despite his greatness, it is hard to see how he coped with such a busy schedule in LA.

There's also something odd about Coe -he produced some long standing marks in the 800m, but only twice were his times truly remarkable. Only once did he run a world class 1500m (time wise) by todays standards. He was obviously a great (the greatest?) championship runner, and he possessed great ability. Any idea why this is so?

Record attempts were probably not as well coordinated in the 80s as they are nowadays, but somehow it doesn't quite explain it for me...