Regarding Viren and blood doping

[quote]Raised Eyebrow wrote:

I'm Scottish, so no American Whiner here./quote]

Okay then, Scottish whiner.

Also you don't know much about history.

Viren ran quite well in the years between the Olympics.

Explain how 1970s blood changing would provide a benefit. They didn't spin the blood and "pack" it with RBC as in Puerto for example.

I know Keith Richards benefited from blood changing in the '70's, but not sure whether an athlete in those days would have gotten much of a boost compared to today's blood doper.

South Eugene Runner wrote:

Raised Eyebrow wrote:

...a new technique, like blood doping, isn't illegal, technically, until it is discovered and a way to test against it created and implemented.

So, then, is there even a point to the continued pontification of this subject?

Yes; read the comments about the spirit of fairness and the Olympic ideal.

You know these guys knew they were trying to gain an unfair advantage.

scottish whiner wrote:

[quote]Raised Eyebrow wrote:

I'm Scottish, so no American Whiner here./quote]

Okay then, Scottish whiner.

Also you don't know much about history.

Viren ran quite well in the years between the Olympics.

Okay easy immature cheap shot hope you enjoyed it.

You don't know much about history, go read the article linked on the front page, and the rep on Viren was that he ran spotty between Olympics, and laid low alot.

That was his General Reputation at the time, ask any old timer, and it doesn't matter if he ran the ocassional good or great race here or there, Generally he had a rep for spotty racing between Olympics.

Anyway, I think the other two Caught Finnish cheats proved that their system wasn't clean in that day...

FYI... Finland was not considered "in the Eastern Block", but were an independent country that appeased the Soviet Union politically, while maintaining a free market economy (called Finlandisation). Just thought you needed a little history lesson.

That was his General Reputation at the time, ask any old timer, and it doesn't matter if he ran the ocassional good or great race here or there, Generally he had a rep for spotty racing between Olympics.[/quote]

I'm an oldtimer, and over the past 30-something years, I've heard many accusations about Viren and blood doping from people who have a lot less knowledge about Viren and blood doping than I do. I don't know whether he was a doper or not, but I'm fairly confident that, with or without doping, he was the best 5K and 10K runner in the world when it mattered most in 1972 and 1976.

Just coincidentally, I happened to be reading Tim Noakes's discussion of blood-doping in "The Lore of Running" (4th ed. 2003) earlier today. Although I question some of Noakes's writing, I agree with his characterization of doping accusations against Viren in 1976 as "irresponsible and unsubstantiated."

So essentially if Maaninka beat his wife Viren did too, his own wife, not Maaninka\'s. Yes, the Finns have had some athletes who cheated but there has never been anything to implicate Viren. That doesn\'t prove he cheated but the fact that other Finns did cheat doesn\'t prove that Viren did.

And if something is \"technically legal\" it\'s legal. There were other successful athlets in those days who did blood dope and have rarely been accused. I suspect that\'s because they were from English speaking countries and we generally like them and think of them positively whereas the Finns are much more foreign.

This is a discussion that will go on forever because if Viren says he was clean there will always be some who don\'t believe him and if he was dirty he\'ll never say so

Shorter said he was 100% positive Viren doped. Could have been bitter but I would think he has better knowledge than most on the subject.

I remember reading a quote from Harry Wilson about blood doping. It suggested he was of the thinking it may have been a legitamate option for his athletes. This was when he was coaching Ovett and many other stars. It doesn't mean he chose to utilise it but...

I believe Cova admitted to blood doping. So we must assume all Italians of the 80s were doing it which means their coaches must all be cheats which means all the Africans are cheating etc etc.

Dingler wrote:

What Teg was doing to treat his injury may or may not be within the spirtit of fairness

I have yet to hear one person give a good argument on how Teg's treatment is not in the spirit of fairness.

Ok. I just watched the video. Those two Finns were more doped than Janis Joplin. I'm sorry but white people simply cannot do that. 27:40 with a 54 second last lap! Name one white dude today that can do that. 57 maybe. But 54? It was almost like a comedy sketch in which a baketball player does these amazing impossible dunks only to find out he had springs in his sneakers. And I liked the way the announcer was commenting on Viren's emergency hospital visits between heats and how he "won nothing between 72 and 76.

Shorter has accused everyone who routinely kicked his butt.

Probably Shorter is the one who was doping.

b arnold wrote:

Shorter said he was 100% positive Viren doped. Could have been bitter but I would think he has better knowledge than most on the subject.

When did you hear Shorter say that? (Rodgers, by the way, said that he was positive that Viren did not dope.)

Shorter, like many others, picked Viren as the clear favorite to win at least the 10,000 in Munich as soon as he saw the guy run for the first time. He simply thought that Viren was the best runner he'd ever seen. Viren, who wasn't much older than Pre, had only been running at the world-class level for a short time. But he totally dominated distance running throughout the entire 1972 track season -- before, during, and after the Olympic games.

The idea that Viren only performed well at the Olympics is bunk. Viren may have phoned it in for a few races, but he still set a bunch of world records from two miles to 25K, and he ran a lot of sub-28 10,000-mter races at a time when they were by no means routine. Moreover, in Viren's words, "The question is not why I do so well in the Olympics. The question is why others cannot." Back then, the Olympics were almost the entire game. So who should have raised more eyebrows -- a guy who did well when nobody was watching, or a guy who did well when the eyes of the world were on him?

I remember Eric Segal, during the 1976 Olympic 10,000, baldly assert that Viren was a blood-doper. Segal knew almost nothing about Viren, blood-doping, or anything else in the sport. He was just a celebrity middle-of-the-pack jogger. But he was typical of some of the irresponsible hacks who reported the rumors as true. And I remember believing Segal, because I was another of those dopey Americans who figured that, when people from foreign countries beat our guys when it really mattered, they were probably cheating. And when Viren took off his spikes and waved to the crowd, I was another one of those dopey Americans who believed that he was a professional advertising his shoe company while all of our guys were honest amateurs.

If Viren were a litigious American, he might have made a tidy sum from slander suits. But he seems a very simple man who has always been well-suited to his environment and his circumstances.

The rise and fall of finnish distance running was within a decade: VIren, Kantanen, Maanninka, Vainio, Vasala...

They haven't been close since.

I was the first time in US in 1974. At that time, I was in Los Angeles, and it was possible to buy anabolic steroids in the Supermarket, like today is possible fot vitamins and integrators.

I don't think that we can say, TODAY, the athletes using these steroids were MENTALLY DOPERS.

Today, using CREATIN is ok. May be that, after 5 years, somebody decides that Creatin is doping : can we say that all the athletes using creatin today are dopers ?

We must look at every era with the eyes of that era, not with the eyes of today.

At the beginning of 1970, all the Finnish athletes used the blood transfusion, and, at that time, ALL THE WORLD looked at the Finnish Scientists as the best example for supporting athletes and performances.

This procedure was put outlaw in 1985, but from the beginning of 80 somebody started to fight against it (for example, Sandro Donati in Italy). We had Italian runners using it (as Alberto Cova, Scartezzini, Antibo), and somebody that refused (as Panetta, Mei, Bordin). When this procedure was put outlaw, everybody ended to do it, and Antibo started to improve a lot....

Everybody knew about the Finnish system, so Viren never denied to use. He told that "never he did something wrong" for the laws and the mentality of that period.

Different is to CHEAT today, using something not allowed or, worst, TO TRY TO BUILD SOMETHING NEW, NOT POSSIBLE TO FIND (Balco).

The first using to change his blood was the famous cyclist Jacques Anquetil, in the early 60.

The marathon runners of the beginning of the Century used to get strychnine (one of the most powerful poissons) for not feeling fatigue.

The runners of the period immediately after the second War used to get MICOREN for supporting their heart.

The science at that time was not advanced like today, and many things were still to be discovered.

Personally, I never gave anything to my athletes, because I believe that the most important "dope" is the personal motivation, and I work on this point. I think that, working very hard with continuity, it's possible to bring your body to a level of performance unimaginable, the problem is to maintain the motivation for long time.

So,my idea is that the weakness of the athletes is expecially under the PSYCHOLOGICAl POINT OF VIEW, and they want to receive support from something that they can get in order to become sure to increase their training.

Different is the situation about the increase of MUSCULAR POWER and EXPLOSIVITY : in this case, using the normal training without any support (allowed or forbidden) cannot produce the same result. It's not a case that THERE ARE NO RECORDS IN THROWING AFTER 1988, when the Antidoping started to be more serious against every type of steroid.

I know nothing. wrote:

I'm sorry but white people simply cannot do that. 27:40 with a 54 second last lap!

What makes you assume that black people can do it without doping?

The rise and fall of finnish distance running was within a decade: VIren, Kantanen, Maanninka, Vainio, Vasala...

They haven't been close since.

Right. Which is either just a coincidence... or not.

1. It is only cheating if what he did was against the rules. Blood doping was not against the rules. Anyone was allowed to do it.

2. Please try to post under ONE name in this thread please. You've already used at least two.

answer for you wrote:

1. It is only cheating if what he did was against the rules.

Thank you. Too many people forget this.