How about spinning down erythrocytes? When was that developed.
Rick Wuhlhuter has gone on the record saying he knew multiple people doing it. So evidently you are less than accurate.
To the other poster who said its overblown, pardon me if I don't take your word for it.
Coe was dirty. You know it and I know it (on some level, whether or not you consciously want to admit it.)
This was the circuit that Coe mentions in Better Training for Distance Runners as the one employed at Loughbourough that helped develop Seb's speed.
The Loughborough Circuit of the late 1970?s
1) One warm-up loop was made on the circuit with 10 repetitions at each station, and only one rope climb.
2) Fifteen minutes of supervised stretching.
3) Two loops of the circuit were undertaken with 30 seconds spent at each station, 15 seconds were allotted for movement between stations, with an additional 10 minute recovery before susequent loops.
Circuit Stations
1) Rope Climb.
2) Reverse Splits
3) Balance Beam Rebound Jumps.
4) Back Extensions.
5) Continuous One Legged Step-ups.
6) Parallel Bar Dips.
7) Depth Jumps from vaulting boxes.
8) Push Ups with elevated feet.
9) Low Thrusts (Sprint Starts).
10) Leg Raises while hanging from wall bars.
11) Bent Knee Sit-Ups.
12) Bounding.
13) Burpees.
If you read peter coe' promts on the BMC website, he mentions that early in the year his goal was to do body weight squats, as many as 500 per set, mixed in his circut training. he, throughout the season, increases how often he does the circut untill the middle of the season when he moves to weights, which increases in weight and decreases in resp up till the end of the season. the details are on BMC.
to sjm1368's point,
Again, I've only worked with a small cohort of athletes, but....
their ROM stinks, especially at the hip. Best example - can they lie on their back, lift their leg above their hip, making an 90º angle - similar to the picture below, but with no rope
http://www.berkeleywellness.com/pix/fwStretching09Thigh.gif
My experience is that none of them can. An orthopedic surgen (a former DI shot put thrower at an ivy league school) I know loves to tell me that there was no reason a distance runner shouldn't be able to do that. I sort of bought in, but didn't know now to help the athlete SAFELY gain that ROM; two weeks later I heard Phil Wharton speak at a HS clinic and could see how his AIS method can help an athlete get the appropriate range of motion.
But the real proof for the AIS/rope stretching is that everyone in the mammoth lakes group does it and that group - again, a small cohort, but an important one relative to our discussion - does the AIS routine 2-3 times a day and does not seem to have the same injury issues that many of their peers have.
I know your comment was focused on the ankle and I'll let others chime in relative to joint - Lyrdiard often said the ankle was the most overlooked element in training and that strong, flexible, ballistic ankles were something that all distance runners should strive towards.
Do bodyweight squats and lunges (or weighted versions for that matter)...and you'll increase ROM.
Check out the Olympic Lifters and see their ROM in the joints....pretty remarkable for supposedly "muscled" guys and gals.
If you look at a successful high school runner and test the ROM in his joints and then 20 years later test his ROM you will notice a large decrease in ROM.
Running puts emphasis on certain muscle groups vs others and this creates muscular imbalances which lead to injuries later on. This happens over time.
You don't need, nor do you want, excessive ROM because that can be just as bad. You want the ROM that you need to prevent injuries and does not impair a fast and effecient running stride.
Squats, lunges, leg swings, butt kicks, high knees, these are the types of dynamic exercises that will improve a runner's specific range of motion. Static stretching is not a good way to improve functional ROM as you will tend to overstretch the muscle past what is functional and needed. You are not a Yoga Master...you are a distance runner.
Alan
So Alan,
if I'm a person who is naturally very flexible and has a pretty big ROM in all movements without even specifically working on it, am I supposed to worry?
On a side note, it seems really counterintuitive that working to improve ROM, or any aspect of one's athleticism for that matter (without compromising any running-specific work, of course), could make one a poorer runner.
Intuitively I would think that anything that improves one's overall athleticism has to be good (once again, without taking away from running-specific work).
I think Lydiard said that distance runners should have "ankles like dancers" or something along those lines. I've also heard that a favorite Kenyan drill along with high knees, buttkicks etc is running while focusing on "popping" off the ground using the ankle.
I could say it all, but ill let you look up the name Mark Rippetoe
I don't have the answers, just asking questions, but how much does static flexibility/range of motion correlate with active/dynamic range of motion?
What I'm getting at is, does being able to lift the leg like shown, or the degree of static flexibility measured however, correlate to if an athlete has proper hip extension WHILE running?
I don't know the answer to that question. Just from my small cohort of athletes I've worked with, it seems like sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't. I've had guys who were so dang inflexible at the hips while standing around stretching or while doing hurdle drills, but when running, their hip extension was great. So what's the correlation?
I only ask because research has consistantly shown a negative correlation between joint range of motion and running economy. Obviously there is a point where one would be too inflexible and performance would be hindered. But in general, being flexible and running is a bad thing.
On the ankle- It's a controversial subject, but I think the ankle itself provides very little to propulsion in terms of active use. Meaning, active toe off contributes very little. Don't quote me on this, b/c It's been a while since I've looked, but in Frans Bosch's book Running, there was research that showed that only during the first portion of the stance phase is muscle activity actually contributing to propulsion, and that increased active toe off did not aid propulsion, and in fact toeing off too much just caused runners to flatten out. I'll have to look it up when I get a chance.
Also, for seb coe's weight training: there's an interview with George Gandy on
http://www.athleticscoaching.ca/
He talks about his famous circuit that Seb used.
MemphisState wrote:
But the real proof for the AIS/rope stretching is that everyone in the mammoth lakes group does it and that group - again, a small cohort, but an important one relative to our discussion - does the AIS routine 2-3 times a day and does not seem to have the same injury issues that many of their peers have.
Mr. Johnson -
While you may be right, I'm going to peer-review your post and ask for some data to back up your (potentially correct) conjecture.
Dobson has had nagging stuff the last couple years in addition to a stress fracture in early 2007.
Keflezighi has been banged up off-and-on for a couple years.
The O'Neills have had problems as well.
Kastor's two injuries that come to mind (stepping on a pine cone and Beijing) both seem like freak things but the seeds for those kinds of injuries are sown in training.
As Ritzenhein so eloquently pointed out, he and the CU program are under a scanning tunneling microscope when it comes to injuries. People get hurt elsewhere, you just don't hear about it.
I hate to be a pain but this kind of back and forth is useful.
hard to find wrote:
This was the circuit that Coe mentions in Better Training for Distance Runners as the one employed at Loughbourough that helped develop Seb's speed.
The Loughborough Circuit of the late 1970?s
1) One warm-up loop was made on the circuit with 10 repetitions at each station, and only one rope climb.
2) Fifteen minutes of supervised stretching.
3) Two loops of the circuit were undertaken with 30 seconds spent at each station, 15 seconds were allotted for movement between stations, with an additional 10 minute recovery before susequent loops.
Circuit Stations
1) Rope Climb.
2) Reverse Splits
3) Balance Beam Rebound Jumps.
4) Back Extensions.
5) Continuous One Legged Step-ups.
6) Parallel Bar Dips.
7) Depth Jumps from vaulting boxes.
8) Push Ups with elevated feet.
9) Low Thrusts (Sprint Starts).
10) Leg Raises while hanging from wall bars.
11) Bent Knee Sit-Ups.
12) Bounding.
13) Burpees.
Rippetoe is a powerlifting guru....nice socks:
He seems to be a bit "old school". Like if you can't do deads and squats in the same workout you're a schoolgirl. Some clients just don't have the back strength to handle that kind of load.
Three names I would suggest any beginner in the iron game (or anyone getting into any sort of weight lifting) to read about are:
Weider
Rippetoe
Poliquin
Their books are the reference guide to gaining strength and/or size.
Alan
Of course Coe was dirty,....he wasn't American! If Wohlhuter (who was pretty much the same height and weight as Coe) says he (himself) was clean then it's given and if anyone not American with the same physical appearance runs faster than him, then they must be on drugs!
What a load of crap! Coe was the most frequently tested athlete in the world in the early 80's
"In the UK, out of season competition testing was introduced in the EARLY 1980's. In 1985, the Sports Council financed a pilot scheme for out of season testing of British athletes eligible for international selection. The (then) BAAB began a programme of random out of competition testing from a register of eligible athletes. (Bottomley, 1988)"
I don't know when out of season testing was introduced in the US or by the IAAF, but certainly Coe was tested out of season by the BAAB from 1981 and throughout his career. He was never tested positive in any sense of the word, unlike some US "stars" (e.g Lewis and Lagat) who got off with technicalities! Moreover it was Coe (along with Edwin Moses) that was at the forefront of calling for life bans of any dopers, when he adressed the IOC congress at Baden Baden in 1981. Not the behaviour of someone who was using PEDs.
The reason Coe ran sub 1:42 and 3:30 is that he was a phenomenally talented athlete with the drive and single-mindedness to work hard over a long period of time. Anyone who can run 21.5 for 200m and beat the likes of Coghlan, Foster and McCloud over 4 miles on 800m training; not to mention a VO2 Max of 90 and a sustained heart rate of 250bpm
(www.valleystriders.org.uk/ccol0007.htm); is a freak of nature. Pure and simple.
Rather look at those athletes who set tomes and broke records at an alarmingly exponential rate of improvement in the late 90's and early '00's when there was NO test for EPO, either in or out of competition, or those athletes who run for countries that have NEVER had out of season testing.
the book Starting Strength, basic barbell training by Rippetoe and Kilgore is a breakdown of the squat, bench press , deadlift, the press, and the power clean. The squat alone is a 60 page chapter breakdown proper technique. Its a great book for beginners.
Anyone who is going to coach a successful athlete will have to coach the squat. I dont care if its football or skateboarding
Also....where did this myth come from about keeping knees behind the toes? The best way to keep the knees healthy with a squat is to get down to parallel(NOT ass to the grass, just good old top of thigh to ground parallel), and skip the the half stuff(unless its light weight or body weight).
Runners---start with some body weight circuits(ross training, seb coe, oregon circuit, whoever), then advance to squat, press and clean--THEN move on to sprt specifics for your mid to end of season training.
id be shocked... wrote:
Rick Wuhlhuter has gone on the record saying he knew multiple people doing it. So evidently you are less than accurate.
Show us the record then.
To the other poster who said its overblown, pardon me if I don't take your word for it.
Coe was dirty. You know it and I know it (on some level, whether or not you consciously want to admit it.)
Pardon me if I don't take your word for that. Coe was clean whether or not you want to admit it.
not wobbly wrote:
[
Pardon me if I don't take your word for that. Coe was clean whether or not you want to admit it.
I don't even think about who was or wasn't dirty, but I do think about this and laugh.....
10 years ago I used to argue the idea that baseball players were dirty. Either laughter or the boring hand eye skill argument would be the response 100 percent of the time. And I mean ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of the time. From baseball fans, to ball players, to sports reporters. Not a single one could wrap their minds around the idea that a baseball player would use steroids.
To whoever said drug use began in the 70's go jump off a cliff.
There you go "Not wobbly."
About half way through:
RWD: What do you think of drug problems in track (at least in the news)? Does it mar the sport for you?
Wohlhuter: Use of performance drugs was a problem when I competed in the 1970s and persists today. I have several friends who used performance drugs and now have health problems. It is very sad. I am very glad I did not use drugs of any kind to enhance my athlete performance. It is disappointing to read about accusations of drug use by athletes; the problem seems to cover all sports. Drugs have left a large overhanging cloud. I worry that eventually the public may lose interest in sports and stop going to events.
Began in the 80's rather....it was obviously present in the 70's as well.
First, this back and forth is great.
Second, I'm swamped today and I'll read all of the other posts in the thread...this one relates only to Don Veggie Burrito's comments. Peer reviews always appreciated ;-)
Lots to consider...my first reaction to that list is that Dobson made the Olympic team in the 5k (an event with some depth? i'd say so) and obviously Meb is running well as of late. I'm a horrible fan of the sport when it comes to who is running well, who is healthy, who is injured so I don't know the status of the others. That said, I'd say that with the number of athletes who fall under the broad heading of "mammoth lakes training group" the consistency on the track and on the roads over the last 3-4 is fairly high.
Second, the small number of former CU athletes that have fully adopted the AIS 2-3 times a day routine have fewer injuries on the whole, but again, that is not to say the AIS devotees are injury-free.
Finally, two people said the same thing to me last year at the same damn meet. Chapman talked about the "occupational hazards" associated with running hard (for him, getting a 13:45 guy to 13:30ish); foot doctor Amol Saxena used the same term to make me feel better about an athlete who ended up tearing her planter fascia. My point? People get hurt in this sport and there is no cure all, yet I would argue that serious athletes who seriously integrate the AIS into their training will, over a number of years, experience fewer injuries...and if you want to be in the weight room a couple times a week i'd say daily AIS is a must.
I'll read the entire thread tonight - good stuff
Id be shocked... wrote:
There you go "Not wobbly."
And from this you deduce that Coe used drugs. Was Coe one of Wohlhuter's friends? We must therefore also assume that Wohlhuter was "doped to the gills" too, right?
