Lydiard base - aerobic pace

I've written here many times that in years and years of getting advice from Lydiard and Barry Magee that neither ever said "run harder." The only instructions I ever got in that regard was to put in the distance, don't worry about minutes per mile and to enjoy myself.

If you do that, you'll most likely enjoy yourself at faster paces. In my best years most of my runs were within 10-15 seconds either way of 6:00 pace and it honestly felt no harder than 7:30 or so had felt two or three years earlier. At no time in any of that did I try to run harder or faster. I just did what was comfortable.

As to "What if I enjoy LSD," LSD is different for a 28:00 ten kilometer runner than it is for a 38:00 ten kilometer runner. As you get fitter, LSD will likely be different and faster for you.

If you err on the side of running too fast, Snell told me, you'd know it very soon. So I don't see it as a big problem. You'll know it and should adjust. But what Lydiard said here is that you really can't err on the side of running too slowly. It's just that there is no need to run slower than you're capable of.

In my opinion, I liked this description of Lydiards' efforts:1/4 = steady1/2 = hard3/4 = harderI think it comes from RunningArt2004. Simple, but says it all.I also thought that Hadd's famous description of Phase 1 mileage buildup for "Joe" was very much in line with Lydiard's aerobic conditioning phase. Since Joe was coming back into form, these intensities might be on the easy side.Joe's HRmax was 193. Here is an excerpt:Joe was given schedules to show him how to best get from 50 mpw to 80 mpw. Mon 60 mins easy 145 HR Tue 75 mins easy 160HR Wed Easy 45 mins 145 HR Thu Easy 60 mins 150 HR Fri 75 mins easy 160 HR Sat Easy 45 mins 150 HR Sun 90 mins easy 155 HR Approx 60mpw Mon 75 mins easy 145 HR Tue 60 mins easy 155-160 HR Wed 60 mins easy up to 150 HR Thu 75 mins easy 145-150 HR Fri 75 mins easy 160 HR Sat 60 mins easy 145-150 HR Sun 90 mins easy up to 150 HR Approx 69mpw Mon 60 mins jog easy 140-150 HR (or lower) Tue 90 mins including 70 mins @ 160 HR Wed 75 mins easy 140-150 HR (or lower) Thu 75 mins 150-155 HR Fri 90 mins including 70 mins @ 160 HR Sat 75 mins easy 140-150 HR (or lower) Sun 2 hrs easy 145-155 HR (but to include 60 mins @ 160) Approx 80+mpw

funky colin miller wrote:

1/4 pace = standard long run pace - as you feel. When I ran 15min for 5k this was anywhere between 6.40-7.20

3/4/ pace = about 13-19 mile race pace in my experience but normally over about 6-10 miles.

1/2 pace - somewhere in between!

To add to HRE's Post about pace on long runs.

I did do a lot of running with Bill Baillie in the 70's and 80's.

I may have mentioned this before : Although we would run the long runs pretty much averaging around 7;00min mile, the reality of the runs was slightly different.

Bill had Achilles tendon problems in the 70's, so we would "shuffle" out at anything from 9 to 11 min miles (suited me as I hated mornings !!!!!!)

As we "warmed up" so did the pace, so after say 45 mins to an hour the pace became "quicker". Of course the uphll section of Waiatarua was tough going but as we headed into the "downhill" section of it we could be trucking along at low 6's if not faster in parts of it.

Problem was we did not check what the pace was, we just ran "comfortably".

All we did was look at the 'Total' time taken. Look at the distance covered and work out what we had averaged for the distance.

I was asked sometime ago what was the "fastest" long run I did with Bill. I will dig it out and post again. Basically it was a 22 mile run at 2:40 marathon pace.

So we did not "mess around". BUT. It took me 4 years of fairly consistent running to be able to handle that sort of pace.

Hope that helps.

My thinking on this is a little different:

1/4 effort shouldn't be steady. It's not a solid aerobic pace. It should be towards the recovery end of easy pace. LSD pace. "Light effort."

1/2 effort would be more like steady effort: 80-83% of max HR. The lower end of marathon pace. "Steady pace."

3/4 effort: tempo pace, broadly put. Somewhere around one-hour pace. Threshold or slightly above, but definitely not V02max. "Comfortably hard," but flirting with isocapnic buffering zone.

7/8 effort: time trial effort. "Hard."

What's with the obsession with Arthur Lydiard in this forum?

Go to Kenya, Ethiopia and Morocco and ask who Arthur Lydiard was....

kudzurunner wrote:

My thinking on this is a little different:

1/4 effort shouldn't be steady. It's not a solid aerobic pace. It should be towards the recovery end of easy pace. LSD pace. "Light effort."

1/2 effort would be more like steady effort: 80-83% of max HR. The lower end of marathon pace. "Steady pace."

3/4 effort: tempo pace, broadly put. Somewhere around one-hour pace. Threshold or slightly above, but definitely not V02max. "Comfortably hard," but flirting with isocapnic buffering zone.

7/8 effort: time trial effort. "Hard."

Since Lydiard´s runners were running up to an hour at 3/4 effort, it was hardly threshold pace. That would, by definition, have been a race effort.

In order to understand modern physics it is helpful to understand Newtonian physics.

Lydiard is the equivalent to Newtonian physics. It works. It works very very well. The best running theories in the world come from understanding the basic ideas and principles of Lydiards system. Also Lydiards system fails to work as you approach the speed of light (which would explain the African phenomenon)

the rocket wrote:

In order to understand modern physics it is helpful to understand Newtonian physics.

Lydiard is the equivalent to Newtonian physics. It works. It works very very well. The best running theories in the world come from understanding the basic ideas and principles of Lydiards system. Also Lydiards system fails to work as you approach the speed of light (which would explain the African phenomenon)

Rocket, i like the first part of your post but i disagree with the second.

If Snell would walk out today in his 144.3 360m grass track timetrialed WR would anyone ever have beaten him? Would he run 141 or better with that race on the tracks of today?

African's have the depth of aerobic development that comes from lifestyle and culture. Lydiard saw this lack in himself as a white man and set about addressing that and in due course addressed it in people like Snell.

Good point, but how man Snell's are there?

Do you really think that Peter Snell was some sort of one in a billion phenomenon? Peopl like him are rare, but not unique. If you talk to Peter about why his performances at the 800 are still competitive nearly fifty years after he turned them in he'll tell you it's ebcause 800 runners aren't doing the proper training.

HRE wrote:

Do you really think that Peter Snell was some sort of one in a billion phenomenon?

Yes.

Truth teller wrote:

HRE wrote:

Do you really think that Peter Snell was some sort of one in a billion phenomenon?

Yes.

You're wrong.

You're wrong.

He was a talented Sportsman but at the High School he attended he was just one of many. He never held the School 800m record and was not the best runner at the School.

How do I know this. I worked at that school.

When I was a student in the US I saw many runners who showed the same talent as Peter Snell. Only difference, they would not do the "Hard yards".

Kim i would love to talk about Snell more knowing now that you knew him from high school. I wonder when we are finally going to meet?

Lydaird said 'champions are everywhere, they just need to be coached properly'

i agree with this more than ever seeing the talent available in the small area of North Shore and small population it contains of 250,000.

I also see how easily poor coaching messes with this talent effectively reducing the potential of it. What can be enhanced can far more easily be dis-enhanced (is that a word?).

With a population of approaching 300 million there can be little doubt that right now there are literally hundreds of young distance runners who could be trained to Olympic champion status. Yet???

With 4 million current residents and obviously less in the past how does a country the size of NZ have a better middle distance record than the US?

Is Igloi the best ever coach of MD and distance in the US? Seems to be. And he preferred an interval based method which seems now to be proven as inferior to the steady running method.

And why did Bowerman like Lydiard so much? Because Lydiard showed him a better way or because of some other reason?

I think Lydiard just needs to be better understood.

We're just talking about pace during base building. There is no obsession here.How many Kenyans, Ethiopians, and Morrocans read the "letsrun" forum?Why don't they start discussions about other coaches' training -- questions they might have about pace, efforts, balance, frequencies, workouts, etc.? Why don't you?Who here should train like Kenyans, Ethiopians, or Morrocans?Why go to Kenya, Ethiopia, or Morocco, when I can come here and have Lydiard for free?

islydiard wrote:

What's with the obsession with Arthur Lydiard in this forum?

Go to Kenya, Ethiopia and Morocco and ask who Arthur Lydiard was....

islydiard wrote:

Go to Kenya, Ethiopia and Morocco and ask who Arthur Lydiard was....

i'm sure the more educated of them would know who Runner's World magazine branded as the greatest coach of the 20th century.

But that's besides the point.

When Arthur visited Kenya he immediately saw and said to the effect that they didn't need him there, they were already doing what he proposed.

they simply live more aerobically than most of the Western world. They walk or run everywhere whilst we sit down in cars or on trains or buses. They also generally eat better.

Does anyone know of the group of people who live high in the Andes in Sth America that basically run everywhere at high altitude.I once read that in a 100km or similar distance high altitude run, this group of indigenous (Peruvian maybe) folk placed 9 out of the top ten in that particular race. It was a race open to anyone in the world and attended by many countries.

The only group I know of that matches your description are the Tarahamura Indians who live mostly in the mountains of northern Mexico though I think there are a few in the mountains of New Mexico and Arizona.

They fit your description of "run everywhere" and also play these "ball" games that involve largely continuous running for days at a time, I assume with sleep breaks.

They've always drawn some interest in the running world, I think the most recent was several years ago when a few of them were persuaded to run the Leadville, Co. 100 mile race.

Cheers HRE i just found this

The Tarahumara Indians of Chihuahua

Tarahumara comes from the native word Raramuri, which means “foot runner.” Some 50,000 of these most primitive North American Indians live in the Sierra Madre Mountains of Chihuahua. The rugged, isolated terrain ranges from high peaks to deep, tropic canyon bottoms.

Their most common food dishes are based on corn and flavored with an assortment of fruits, beans, squash, seeds, chilis and herbs. Meat makes up about only 5% of their diet, and is eaten mainly at communal gatherings. These corn beer gatherings are planned for special times of community work projects, curing festivals, inter-pueblo races, and religious ceremonies. Sometimes food accompanies the tesquino (corn beer).

These people are noted for their long distance endurance running. Since the time they are able to walk, they are running up and down steep mountainsides on rocky paths. In the 1993 Leadville (CO) Trail 100 ultramarathon, the first, second and fifth place winners were Tarahumaras. Victoriano Churro, 55, won the race in 20 hours, 2 minutes, 33 seconds. Most of the train is over 10,000 ft. elevation and twice crosses Hope Pass at 12,600 ft. elevation. The three did it their own way by discarding the fancy running shoes they had been given at the aid station 13 ½ miles into the race, and putting on the sandals from the tires they had picked up at the Leadville junkyard. The Tarahumara heart rate and blood pressure tend to average 20% below ours. They have been known in the past to run a deer to exhaustion. Then they shoot it with an arrow and take it home

and more,apologies for the length but it is really interesting, from their running to their humanity to their current plight in the final paragraph:

THE TAMAHUMARAS

For the people to whom running is a lifestyle, ultra marathon running seems an old phenomenon, one that has been a part of daily life since its beginnings. Running more than twenty-six miles a day seems a menial task to a Tarahumara, a daily chore, while to the Americans running next to them it is an all consu ming feat. These people, known world wide as "the running indians" have recently made their appearance in the ultra world and are showing everyone how easy running really is for them.

The statement that, "The Tarahumara may be the finest natural distance runners in the world", made by University of Arizona archeologist Michael Jenk inson, offers some insight into just how good the indians are at running (Lutz 21). The Tarahumara routinely run distances only covered by only the most advanced ultramarathon runners today. To these indians, running is more than sport, running is literally life. The Tarahumara live in very rugged land and travel by wagon or horses is usually impractical. Because of this, foot travel is more often than not the best option for getting from one place to another and it is usually the quickest. While on foot, the Tarahumara do not stroll from one place to their destination, running is used to perform everyday tasks. It is not uncommon for a Tarahumara to travel between fifty and eighty miles everyday at a "race" like pace.

Tarahumara running is based on endurance not speed. This fact is exemplified by their hunting practices. In order to catch such wild animals as deer, wild turkeys, and rabbits, the Tarahumara simply chase after the animal until the animal drops from exhaustion. Their hunting practices are widely known in Mexico and ranchers have been known to hire the indians to chase down wild horses . It is also said that a Tarahumara once ran six hundred miles in five days to deliver a very important message. Their endurance and conditioning has become k nown worldwide. Says Dale Groom, M.D., "Probably not since the days of the ancient Spartans has a people achieved such a high state of physical conditioning." (Lutz 21) This phenomenon has led to the inevitable question of, "Are the Tarahumara genetically special when it comes to running?" After many scientific tests, doctors have come to the conclusion that the Tarahumara's endurance is based more on conditioning than on heredity. Experts believe that there are two main causes for the Tarahumara's amazing endurance; physical conditioning and cultural importance.

Diet also seems to play an important role in their running. The Tarahumara diet is practically meatless and consists mostly of complex carbohydrates. They eat approximately 10 percent proteins, 10 percent fat, and 80 percent complex carbohydrate.(Lutz 30) Balanced diet is believed to be one factor behind the Tarahumara's resiliency. The Tarahumara take cooperative farming to the extreme and agriculture is a project for the entire village.(Welker 2) Meat is rarely eaten but on special occasions they eat goat, mice and fish. If they are hunting small game, they chase after it and then throw rocks at it. The Tarahumara is very accurate throwers and practice from childhood. These extreme eating habits seem to contribute to lower pulse rates and blood pressure. These factors may allow them to cope with oxygen debt at high altitudes, such as a mile and a half above sea level.

Running is very important to the Tarahumara culture, although there is no formal training. Quite the opposite, the Tarahumara smoke and drink before each race. While even the children participate, it is not something taught to them. The Tarahumara call themselves "raramuri" which means fleet foot or foot runner.(Lutz 33) They take great pride in their running abilities and the best runners receive great status in society. They center the entire society around their running. Says anthropologist John Kennedy, "Running is more than a game to the Tarahumara. Though obviously a pleasant diversion, it is also an economic activity, a force for social cohesion, and a channel of aggression....If this institution were removed from Tarahumara life, the total cultural imbalance resulting would be greater than if some sporting activity were dropped from our own complex culture".(Severance 74)

The Tarahumara culture involves two very significant features that deal with running, the rarajipari and the dowerami, which are races in which people of the same sex compete. The rarajipari is for men and is the more competitive of the two. It is a race run between two teams each of three to ten men. The intriguing thing about the race is that men on the teams kick along a wooden, baseball-shaped ball as they run. Each man takes his turn dribbling the ball in a style similar to soccer and the total distance run may be up to one hundred and fifty miles. The races take place over very rugged terrain. The courses are either not marked or marked with rocks and sticks. The races are very competitive because they are run between neighboring villages and much pride is involved. Much betting goes on and cheating often takes place. There is also a lot of ritual and superstition involved during the race and in pre-race competition. Each team has there own medicine man who is responsible for conjuring up special potions to help the runners and to cast bad luck on the opposing team. Runners smoke and drink right until the day of the race. They ritualistically drink tesguino, an alcohol made of corn the night before the race. Runners often smoke a combination of tobacco and dried bats' blood to help them run faster and keep away the other team's spirits. The medicine man also digs up a dead person's shin bone, crushes it into a powder and spreads it over the race course. The man's spirit supposedly casts bad luck on the runners from the other team. Runners are very superstitious and drop out of races from fear, but never from exhaustion. Team members also avoid contact with women for several days before the race.(Lutz 21)

The women also run a similar race called the dowerami. The difference between the two races is that women throw and catch interconnected loops while they run. Most rules still apply but the women's race is less important to their society. Both types of races are major social events and are very fun to the Tarahumara. Everyone comes out to watch and offers food to runners.(Lutz 21)

The Tarahumara are very distinct socially as well. It has been said that the Tarahumara are a "stone age" culture. This is because their culture and society has changed very little over approximately six centuries. The Tarahumara still want nothing to do with money and material things that are not important to them. Sharing is considered very noble and land sharing is common because lands rights are hereditary. The Tarahumara are a very shy, sensitive, bashful and isolated people, even within their own household. Family members only speak to each other when absolutely necessary and women are not allowed to be seen unclothed unless they are engaged in the act of lovemaking. These traits can be seen in the way that they handle major conflicts as well. When trouble arises, the Tarahumara practices passive resistance, withdrawal, and avoidance. These practices are believed to be one of the reasons that they have survived so long. "

Tarahumara public racing began at the 1928 Olympic marathon. The two indians that were running were not aware of the distance and when they finished, they were not tired and said, "Too short! Too short!" (Lutz 22) The Tarahumara first appeared on the Ultramarathon circuit in 1992 at the Leadville 100-mile run in Colorado. They were brought from Mexico and funded while they were here by Rick Fisher, operator of Wilderness Research Expeditions (Ramos A1). Fisher is disliked in the Ultra community because he is thought to be loud, outspoken, and rude. It is also believed that he uses the plight of the Tarahumara simply to gain attention for himself and for his organization. In their first race, none of the Tarahumara finished. In 1993, Fisher tried again but this time he familiarized the indians with the course, the equipment and the American racing customs . In 1992 the Tarahumara had many problems. First, they were unfamiliar with the course. Second, they did not know how to use the equipment. At night, they ran with their flashlights pointing up likes the torches that they are used to. Third, at aid stations they simply stood there and therefore received little nutrition and became weak and dehydrated. In their culture is not polite just to take food. They wait until it is offered.

In the 1993 Leadville they fared much better. Tarahumaras took first, second and fifth place (Williams 8). The most amazing thing about the indians was their pace. The winner was fifty-five years old and only ran the second half of the race twenty minutes slower than he ran the first! Another thing that shocks the ultra spectators is Tarahumara footwear. They wear sandals called huaraches made out of old tire tread and leather straps. A Tarahumara won Leadville again in 1994. Later that same year in Utah at the Wasatch 100-Mile run, the Tarahumara were part of a controversy. Someone did not pay their entry fees so they weren't allowed be official runners. They ran unofficially and a Tarahumara was the first to cross the finish line. This greatly upset race officials and the second person to cross the finish line had to be declared the official winner. The latest undertaking of the Tarahumara runners was at the Angeles Crest 100-mile Endurance Run this September. They did not fare well and only one of four entrants finished, in fourth place. It is believed that they went out too fast and became dehydrated.

Within the last few years the Tarahumara have come into the public spotlight. They have recently been entering ultramarathons to call attention to the problems that their people are having in Mexico. Deforestation in the Barranca del Cobre has become one of the most pressing problems for the Tarahumara. "Construction of logging roads, coupled with the thinning of the forests has led to erosion and soil depletion, which have crippled farming and livestock grazing" ( Severance 77). The increased logging is due to two major factors. One is the completion the Chihuahua al Pacifico Railroad in 1962. This, along with other new logging roads has made the land that the Tarahumara lives on much more accessible to modern transportation. Another reason is that the Mexican government received a 45.5 million-dollar loan in 1989 from the World Bank for a logging and forest management project. These funds have been misused though and have been put toward just increased logging. Another problem facing the Tarahumara is the presence of drug traffickers. The Barranca del Cobre is a very productive drug growing area. Drug traffickers have been forcing the Tarahumara to grow the crops of drugs, including marijuana, heroin and opium. It is estimated that seven million pounds of marijuana and two thousand, five hundred pounds of heroin are exported each year into the United States alone. They also clear land in order to have land to grow the crops. The Tarahumara provide a cheap labor supply and if they refuse the demands of the traffickers they are killed. An average of four indians are killed per week because of their refusals. (MEXDEFOR 2) In an attempt to combat the drug problem the Mexican government has been spraying a herbicide called paraquat over the fields. Paraquat rarely affects the crops but is polluting the drinking water of the Tarahumara.