Sub 1:50 800m Training

Here's an example of J. Cruz 800m training,who happened to be coached by Luiz De Oliveira:

Moving Forward from Fall season, it wasn't until Feb that his athletes started doing speed, but found that being away from it so long could cause soreness at first. So he introduced circuit training during the winter with the athletes doing fast, but not all-out 50-metre runs. He also uses what he calls, "holding-breath running" in winter. The athletes run 50-75m holding their breath. Although he does not say how many repeats they run, or with what recovery, he believes this helps prepare them for the real speed training which still begins in Feb.

Interval training

When Cruz ran 3 x 1.42 one year, he was "going thru 700m in 1.28 and 1.29 and running the second lap three seconds slower than the first. The plan was to get him to where he could go thru in 1.27".

Here are the sessions he did before the 3 x 1.42s

Dec

5 sets of (5 x 400m in 66-68 av: 65 with 45 secs recovery and 4.00 mins between sets)

Feb

4 sets of (4 x 400m in 61-63 av:62 with 45 rec and 4.00 mins between sets)

Apr

3 sets of (4 x 400m in 58-60 av:58 with 60 secs rec)

June

3 sets of (3 x 400m in 56-58 av:57 with 60 rec)

Aug

2 sets of (2 x 400m in 51-53 av:51 with 3.00 mins rec)

So that no-one gets the idea it?s all 400m training, note that sessions such as: 6 x 1,000m in 2.35-2.40 (with 3.00 recovery) and 6 miles at 5.30-5.40m/m were being done in the Specific Prep (Apr-June) period.

The program alternates between hard and easy weeks, allowing every third Sunday as a day off.

Hill training

They do 800m repeats on a 15% hill (not steeper). About 6-8 x 800m depending on the athlete (no times given). Easy jog down recovery. They later do hill work on 300m, 200m, 100m and even 75m for speed workouts. For the shortest repeats they work on arm and knee lift, trying to improve coordination. They do no downhill training, fearing injury.

Plyometrics

Are done on grass in base training. They are then stopped, but they do retain "high knees" and "fast feet" sessions. He warns that they are hard on the knees and that they sometimes have to stop what is a very good exercise because of potential injury.

Pool training

De Oliveira started to use the pool for people who were injured, then decided to retain it as an integral part of the program. About 20% of training is in the pool.

There are a number of example weeks from de Oliveira?s training program, weekly mileage is as follows (incl warm-up and cool down):

? Basic preparation (Dec-March) approx 48-63 mpw

? Specific Prep (Apr-June) approx 60 mpw

? Competitive period (Jul-Sept) approx 39mpw

Looks fairly similar, Hills, Circuit training, low-end mileage. I agree with the pool training, very low impact endurance/form training.Any other sub 1:50 guys out there willing to share training?

it seems one thing present in all great 800m runners is that their training contains a large volume of short intervals with short rest. Phoenix (don't know if he reads the boards anymore) has touched on this before, and mentioned that with these short intervals, limited lactate is produced, and you're able to get a very high volume of work at race pace and change the muscular component of your system. examples:

steve scott (1:45); sessions of 30-40x100m uphill with jogback

kipkiter (1:41); favorite workout rumored to be 50x100m runs at a specific pace a short rest

cruz (1:41); large volume of short hill sprints (100m)transitioning out of base phase

seb coe (1:41); see steve scott, in addition to 30x200m with 30-45sec rest

johny gray/kadevis robinson; large volume of 100-400m runs with short rest

anybody else think these high volume short intervals are ESSENTIAL to 800m racing?

I dont know if short track intervals are essential, but I think short hills may be. For example in the offseason 10-30X80-100m hill to develope speed while also developing endurance through longer distance intervals, this work can even be continued into the competitive period. In some of his posts Canova also recommended training that seems foreign to many Americans, sessions like 4X(10X150m) at about mile pace with only 20-25 sec recovery, longer between sets. He says that this type of training can replace tempo training for 800m runners without inhibiting their ability to produce lactate, essential for speed endurance.

Good post. We actually will go beyond 200's I like 300's with a 1min 100meter jog recovery. running mile pace with 10 reps during mid base period. As the season progresess we gradually reduce the times.

Later we reduce volume and again decrease the time.

Later decrease time and increase recovery.

Finally during main comp we are running 2-3 at 400 pace with longer recoverys.

This kind of thread is a fine example of how the forum should work,good replies,no villification,sound advice.

I agree, I'm a long time reader, but never have actually posted until I made this thread. Lately everything seems focused towards Politics, Drugs and Bashing. I figured let's start up a good/controversial thread, one that will bring about discussion/ideas, which will hopefully in turn, create a thread that people can use as a reference/guide for there 800m training.

"Running is running you know,it's an old head on young shoulders with legs of burning fire"

loki wrote:

it seems one thing present in all great 800m runners is that their training contains a large volume of short intervals with short rest. Phoenix (don't know if he reads the boards anymore) has touched on this before, and mentioned that with these short intervals, limited lactate is produced, and you're able to get a very high volume of work at race pace and change the muscular component of your system. examples:

steve scott (1:45); sessions of 30-40x100m uphill with jogback

kipkiter (1:41); favorite workout rumored to be 50x100m runs at a specific pace a short rest

cruz (1:41); large volume of short hill sprints (100m)transitioning out of base phase

seb coe (1:41); see steve scott, in addition to 30x200m with 30-45sec rest

johny gray/kadevis robinson; large volume of 100-400m runs with short rest

anybody else think these high volume short intervals are ESSENTIAL to 800m racing?

Of course short intervals with short rests makes sense if you think about it.

Short intervals-allow more volume then long intervals, and is much less stressful(not as much waste buildup). Also, short intervals allow perfect form everytime-Kipketer used to stop his sessions when he began to feel his form break down. There is little point in doing a session if during the last 1/3 of it the athlete goes to their arms, starts swaying or overstriding, etc.

Short rests-builds endurance as well.

Perhaps a session like 50X100 is better in some ways then 25X200 because it works more on starting and getting up to speed quickly many, many times, which is important in a race where the first 200m of a world class race is often sub 25. Kipketer once split 23flat, and that requires some acceleration! If I had 4+ athletes of similar ability I would just have them do 200s starting in lanes then breaking towards the 200 mark. This would teach racing tactics/positioning as well as relaxation while fartleking slightly at high speed. The first 200 in a race would never be a mystery because the athlete would know just what to expect.

However, a few 400-600m reps at 800 pace are needed (in moderation) in the last few weeks because otherwise the athlete will not know the pain that the last 200m of the race is. 200's never seem to simulate that pain exactly like 600s do, even with very short recoveries.

Also, short hills are good because you can get in a much greater volume as there is less pounding, it builds the glutes, hamstrings, quads and calves more (pretty much your whole leg). Hills "open up the stride", so the athlete has higher knee drive and better hip extension.

You don't build a stride like this without hills:

loki wrote:

OldSub4,

could you provide us with a weekly outline of what your training would look like. Like generally what you would do on a Mon/Tue/Wed etc.

Thanks this thread is great!

Generally during the endurance phase a week was the following

Monday

AM 4

PM 8 + drills

Tuesday

PM LT workout -- 4-6 * longer interval 800-1600

Wednesday

AM 4

PM 8 + drills

Thursday

AM Tempo 4-6 miles warmup and cooldown

PM 5 * 200 or 300 cutdowns

Friday

AM 4

PM 8 + drills

Saturday

Hill repeats, something faster like 1600-1200-800-600-400 OR

1200 - 5 mile slower tempo - 1200 cutdown

Sunday

am 16 miles slow

We definately did not do the hills every week but I think we should have as you felt different when you had that fast twitch workout each week (in a good way)

great stuff wrote:

oh and btw. . . how many quality days per week did you run? The way you described it there seems to be 3-4, but I know that the coach you are describing usually uses 3 hard workouts and a long run. And what kind of strength training? John Cook and many others seem to think that strength training including core work, upper and lower body circuits, explosive excercises, and drills of about 60minutes or even more per day is necessary for 800m runners, although many other coaches dont seem to use that much.

You are right, we would do 3 hard days a week, but on the tempo day would do two workouts, one tempo and the other a sprint workout--opposite ends of the spectrum and while you never felt fresh you never really got injured off this either.

I did not do 60 minutes of drills, nor did I use it to replace any aerobic work like Coe, but we did use it to keep coordination keen during offseason. I think the jury is out on how to use this, but basic power is crucial for speed and speed endurance...I think a good measure is vertical leap..something you can improve and you cant fake.

Good stuff here. As someone else said, too much bashing of late.

I am a 800/1500m coach and will add the following 2cents.

I do like and follow the multi pace system, and think that each athlete should plan to run a p.r (or training p.r.) each season in the event above and below the main race. If you do that, no one type of session is more important than the other, but then for your final push, training must be very specific. e.g for 1:50, 2 sets 600+ 200 1:22 + 27 or 500 +300 1:08+41.

My personal experience as both coach and runner is that fast 200s do not help enough or are not indicative enough as a primary session. Obviously though, you must be able to run 5-6x200 in 25-26 if you expect to run 1:48-1:50.

But back to the multipace theme, the best comment I read this year was about Borzakowsky from his coach that when he ran 3:00 for a 1200 a week before a WC then the coach knew he was ready.

For me personally, I like to begin each season with an overdistance race (3000m), then an underdistance race (400m), then bring it together in the final stretch (800m). In essence, it's almost like bringing the pieces together, both mentally and physically. I agree with the above poster who indicated that 200's were not enough of a workout along to really indicate one's fitness. However, as far as workouts, I really feel that 500's and 300's are the perfect training distance for an 800m athlete. Hence the 500 + 300 workout that I think is an outstanding workout. But also, I think recovery is important as well. When I ask people how they felt on a particular 500 and they tell me great, I then ask if they could do another one right now, Usually the response is "No". This tells me that the pace was pushed to hard (unless in the sharpening phase). Otherwise I think one should be concentrating on specific splits that pertain to one's current 800m pace. So for instance someone with a PB of 1:48 could have a workout like this:

5x500 Aiming to hit in around 76-77 sec. in the beginning of the season with only 3-4 Min rest in between

Then as the season continues progress into something more along the lines of repeat 300's/400's in around 37-38(53-54) with 1min rest to stimulate race like conditions.

I personally like a 600m trial about a week/week in a half before my peak race to see where I am. If not a trial, then 2 600's at 1-2 sec slower per 400m (at current 800 pace).

My question though, Is I've always done speed speed speed, what about hills/ or continuing XC training into Winter training, but just lowering the distance say from Mile repeats to 1000 repeats? I feel as though whenever winter starts I begin to lose my aerobic capacity b/c All the focus is shifter towards nailing speed workouts.. Do you think If one was to continue there XC training,but at a lowered distance, and perhaps a few seconds faster (b/c we'd be doing the workouts now on the track as compared to on a grass loop)?? I'm stuck right arounf the 1:51 range, and seem to lose gas the last 150m of my race. Any thoughts?

Well it seems that you should keep more of endurance stuff in your program near still in competition period.

What is this endurance stuff? Enough easy running and 10k-3k pace intervals and long or tempo run. I prefer do a long run after race or very hard session.

26,27,28,29 is a hard race?

So in regards to these hills...

For the longer interval hills, you don't want these to be monstrously steep, correct? More like a steady incline, perhaps the 15% that was mentioned earlier?

But on the other hand, for the short hard intense hill workouts (the 18-22 sec hill), would you want that hill to be pretty steep?

Yes. and you run the short hills at a very fast hard effort,taking appropriate recovery time btwn reps.

Bears and chairs wrote:

So in regards to these hills...

For the longer interval hills, you don't want these to be monstrously steep, correct? More like a steady incline, perhaps the 15% that was mentioned earlier?

But on the other hand, for the short hard intense hill workouts (the 18-22 sec hill), would you want that hill to be pretty steep?

15% is extremely steep.

The famous "Heartbreak Hill" in the Boston marathon, is only 3.8% steep.

1-2%=noticable

3-4%=gradual

5-6%=moderate

7-8%=fairly steep

9-10%=steep

11-12%=very steep

13-15%=extremely steep

16-20%=nearly unrunable

21%+=basically unrunable

anything over about 12% changes the mechanics of running so much compared to running on the flat that it's not really a useful training tool. You get more muscle recruitment but you are training your muscles to contract very slowly, when you want them to contract very quickly. So anything over 12% probably is not useful.

Oldsub4 thank you for sharing your training with us. This is one of the reasons why I come to letsrun.com to learn from the experiences of others. It looks to me that you were coached by Mr. Frank Gagliano, a coach whom I have much respect for.

Anbessa wrote:

My question though, Is I've always done speed speed speed, what about hills/ or continuing XC training into Winter training, but just lowering the distance say from Mile repeats to 1000 repeats? I feel as though whenever winter starts I begin to lose my aerobic capacity b/c All the focus is shifter towards nailing speed workouts.. Do you think If one was to continue there XC training,but at a lowered distance, and perhaps a few seconds faster (b/c we'd be doing the workouts now on the track as compared to on a grass loop)?? I'm stuck right arounf the 1:51 range, and seem to lose gas the last 150m of my race. Any thoughts?

Absolutely you consider XC traning through Winter....just shift a gear. no more mile repeats as you suggest, and move your tempo runs gradually from 6 miles down to 4miles. Keep your Sunday run constant. We would keep our mileage constant as well from XC to Winter phase...just to be running on tired legs. I think the difference is to structure the Winter work as cut downs (ie starting slower and finishing fast) rather than holding pace.

Lastly, a workout that is really good for younger runners of those that are not going to fit in as much work are continuous 800 runs with change of pace. This is straight out of the Oregon system, but something like 3-4*800m where you do first 200m quick, 400m middle at a decent tempo, and last 200m quick. For a 1:50 800m person, you might do this workout in February in 27 - 75 - 27 for a 2:09 total time. This is sort of cramming for a test since you are getting not only 4*800m in, but 8*200 as well! Changing gears to rev up that last 200m is the crux of the workout. You can fiddle with the intervals (200 on, 200 pace, 400 on is particularly cruel), but the idea is trying to hold form in the middle and then having to change gears tired. Breaks up the monotony in the later strength phase as well.

gagliano? wrote:

Oldsub4 thank you for sharing your training with us. This is one of the reasons why I come to letsrun.com to learn from the experiences of others. It looks to me that you were coached by Mr. Frank Gagliano, a coach whom I have much respect for.

You are a good student of the sport! I try not to be cagey about who I trained with, but just dont want to use anyone's name without their permission. Coach "G" was actually heavily influenced on the technical side by Coach "C", who designed a good deal of the strength schedule. Coach "G" though is a true mentor, can smell an injury or bad race coming in his athlete, and knows who to move up an event and who to keep at their race. He can also give you a good chewout when your heads not in the game. Truly, the best coach/teacher of any field I've ever had.