800 meter training

Coe definitely did anywhere from 60 mpw up to 90 mpw during base phase. People talk of how little mileage he did in season, but the thing is that he didn't count his warm up and cool down as mileage. He really ran much more than people think. That is ignorant to use his quote in such a way. Coe never really did run much slow mileage, but he ran much higher mileage than American 800 runners at a fast pace.

C'mon guys. Coe has had several threads debating his mileage and we're not getting any closer to the truth. Unless he's quoted on his mileage and what did and didn't count in that figure, we can only assume it's between 40 and 85 mpw. And this might be track fan sacrilege to say, but for 800m training I'd rather know other methods. Coe popped one 1:41, and one 1:42. He spent the rest of his time blowing 800m Olympic finals and hanging out in the 1:44 zone, with an occasional 1:43. One of the best ever, yes. Can his methods be questioned... I think so. Perhaps an ideal approach for a combination runner, but maybe not for a pure 800 runner.

On another note, Kipketer has had his name called here a few times. I've only seen 2 vague mentions anywhere on the internet about his training. One guy (Tim Gouldthorp) says he roughly follows the 5-pace Coe system and another guy (Steve Bennett) says he saw him in Sydney practicing light bounding and quitting workouts when form began to break down. That's about all there is. Does anybody have anything a little more specific? Trackhead, how did you find out about his lifetime volume? The links and quotes follow for the above Kipketer info.

Steve Bennett:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/400-800-1500/message/4

"Track sessions can be either successful or disastrous in their long term effects. The difference being attitude to movement. A session of 20 x 200 in 26s rest 30s for an elite International 800m athlete could be fantastic in terms of fitness and efficiency at race pace or for an athlete who almost died keeping up to complete the same session with the same statistics a damaging session due to the practice of loss of form. The above session has been reported to have been completes by Wilson Kipketer (2 x 20 x 200 rest 26/30s). A fantastic session for athletes that are capable of maintaining body position a disaster for everyone else.

Now everyone can improve their strength in the gym and convert this to more power using plyometrics. This would aid MD athletes greatly as increased free energy from gravity and increased relaxation. EL G and Kipketer train with plyometrics that is most likely specific to their event. I have seen in Sydney Wilson Kipketer doing low intensity bounding."

I couldn't let this one slide:

Outright fallacy.

You consistently insist on this number despite what everyone says. Marius Bakken who has regular contact with Peter Coe has explicitly stated that the oft reported 40-60 mile per week number for Seb Coe is correct warm-ups and all.

You kill your own credibility when you continue to twist figures to suite your own purposes. In addition to Marius' first hand account I've got at least 4 different books 3 feet to the left of me that indicate that Coe was at 40-60 mpw.

Agreed.

Truth but guilty of fallacy of exclusion in support of your inductive argument. On occasion at certain points of the season Juantorena would do a high volume session.

However his weekly mileage was at 25 miles per week.

Middle Distances. Contemporary Theory, Technique and Training. Page 78.

Not sure. Information on Kipketer is difficult to come by. I have very little here. I would appreciate it if you could post any solid info that you have.

Agree

True, but once again guilty of fallacy of exclusion. This year DK increased his long run to 50 minutes. Luis has emphasized the importance of a base, but his training plan is not high volume. It is intensity based with lots of plyos, circuits, etc.

I appreciate your posts and have saved many of them which have made some good points and provided valuable information. Stick with the facts and you'll be more persuasive. Thanks for posting the stuff from Renato.

I've coached the 800m with a fair amount of success, discussed training with Cruz and Aouita, and competed at that distance inumerable times. The absolute key for the 800m is being able to run relaxed at high speeds. The mileage will help if the former can be maintained, but the mileage is secondary.

trackhead:

You have to read more carefully and also stop embellishing something you read once from a shaky source. Read what Renato actually wrote.

Bucher actually ran 4 x 200 @ 21.x at 1800m ... and THEN ran a 30:18 track 10km ... it doesn't say that was at altitude.

If Cordova says he saw it himself, I believe him, 'cause I don't care what Bucher does, but think about it? Where is there a track at 6000 ft. altitude that would have a track 10km? If it is anywhere I could see it being in Switzerland or Italy (which makes sense)... but come on, really? Why would Bucher run a track 10k?

If he did it I believe RC meant he did it somewhere else. Also, where do you get the idea that Coe/Cram ran such mileage? And why do you say 140 km once then 150 km when you get your back up?

They were both notorious low-mileage guys (I'm sure you know this!). I happen to agree with you about running a lot more than 50-60 mpw ... but Coe and Cram never run well at 3k/5k. I remember Cram running one top-level 2-mile, but getting beat as well.

For a 1:42/3:29 guy Cram couldn't have bee ... OH forget it. If I cared I would go and get the books I have, written by their coaches, and site the pages that contradicts this stuff.

Here is one such thing:

**********

This from Track and Field News (Garry Hill, 1977):

T&FN: Do you run much long distance in the Fall?

Juantorena: No, no, not so much. The longest I run for the 400 is only 300 meters and a half.

T&FN: You never run cross country?

Juantorena: Not so much kilometers. I think I am the only 800 runner to have only 1000 kilometers in a year. Only.

T&FN: Only a thousand! You must run that many in races [large laughter all around].

Juantorena: The others run 3000 kilometers, 2 thousand and a half.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Just goes to show you shouldn't take this stuff seriously. And in the "Legends" book he said they ran "up to 25 km a day" up hills, on sand.

I am not sure which account to believe ... and that is the point! Neither should be used as an example.

Trackhead:

Buddy, when you get a chance, please send Renato's training ideas to me, except for the marathon plan. Thank you! Tinman

What type of 800 time do you think a guy who has 22. in the 200, 48. in the 400 speed while having run low 26's for 8k in cross?

Ah, Phoenix my good friend. You and I are together on many issues but this consistently finds us on end towards one another.

It's a funny issue, Coe's training volume. You've got Marius + Peter Coe on your end, I've got Peter Snell + Seb Coe, Irv Ray + Peter Coe on my end. I just spoke with Snell again about 2 weeks ago and brought this issue up and he assured me again that his conversations with Seb led to the aforementioned totals.

It makes sense to me: we know he did not count warmups/cooldowns and easy recovery runs, and he's often labeled as no more than '60 mpw.' But if you assume 3 times per week he warmsup/coolsdown 2mi both ways, and runs an easy 5 miler 4 times per week (neither of which I find unreasonable) adding that up makes an 82 mile week.

Phoenix, I respect you very much, and you bring with to the board a depth of knowledge that is in dire need. And I am not saying that I could not be wrong on this. Who knows? There are genetic freaks out there who defy the odds and are the statistical outliers.

But, I am sticking to my sources (Snell/Ray + Coes) even if it costs me good credit on this board. I hear conflicting reports, so I tend to put faith in the ones that make more sense to me (it makes more sense to me that Coe would get up to 90mpw in base, drop to the 40s for summer racing and avg. 60mpw for the year).

I don't think I'm horribly out of line on my the quality of the sources, or my reasoning on their credibility.

And on Juanterena, my info on him is very limited and the info you posted does not suprise me (in annual totals), I would like to emphasise that the "occasional" extended long run can mean a lot when your a flat 44sec quarter miler in an 800m race, and that this kind of result with that kind of training will only work if you have that immense basic speed. I always thought M. Johnson should have atleast tried his hand in 800m, with some preparation.

4/8 guy wrote:

does anyone know of any good training for 400/800 meter runner and how to develop the 400 speed im a sophmore in college and redshirted my frosh year if that helps

In this respect, I think Peter Coe's methods are very healthy to adopt.

A 1:48.25 guy in my conference (who graduated a few years ago) ran 48-high in the 4x4, 3:47 in the 1500, 9:10 in the steeple, and 24:30 in 8k cross.

Seems like you've got a little more speed than him, but less endurance. I'd say you're looking at a 1:49.99

I just came across this article about Coe wich was written in 2000. There are some great snippets of info in here.

GREAT BRITISH OLYMPIANS

SEBASTIAN COE

Coe proved himself a peerless middle-distance runner with back-to-back golds.

By Hugh McIlvanney, Sunday Times

Running rivalry that went the extra mile

He captured and then successfully defended one of the most coveted of Olympic titles and he set 13 world records, including a time for the 800 metres that became a magnificent oddity in modern athletics by surviving for 16 years. Yet even the welter of glorious achievements in Sebastian Coe's career probably did less to make him an unforgettable middle-distance runner than the fact that he looked so good being great.

No athlete ever concealed the pain and strain of supreme effort on the track in a more beguiling impression of effortless grace. As he delivered his renowned double-kick, demoralising opponents by using what had seemed to be his ultimate surge as merely the basis for a further, devastating burst of acceleration, he appeared to be floating rhythmically six inches above the ground. If his events had involved awarding points for artistic effect, his rivals need not have bothered to turn up.

Part of the capacity to amass historic performances while remaining stylishly fluent, apparently immune to the exhaustion engulfing others, must have been transmitted to him through his genes. But at least as much was derived from a more tangible form of parental influence. He was coached by his father and the training programme devised by Peter Coe was both severe and boldly innovative. When the greatest runner Britain has produced talks today of the high points of his prime, it is the extent to which they vindicated his father's methods that gives him most pride. Having been as awe-struck as any fan by the phenomenal abilities paraded by Hicham El Guerrouj in the Emsley Carr Mile at Crystal Palace a week ago ("I was standing within eight feet of the track when he passed the three-quarter mile mark on 3min 45sec pace - two seconds faster than my best - and you could hardly notice he was breathing"), he was doubly thrilled when the 25-year-old Moroccan informed him later that the preparation for such feats was based on the Coe regime of two decades before.

"That was gratifying confirmation of something I already knew - that my old man was 20 years ahead of his time as a coach," he said. "What Peter was already doing with me in training pre-1980 is now considered to be orthodox. But back then the kind of approach that incorporated blood chemistry analyses, physiological testing and bio-mechanics was regarded almost as voodoo medicine, even by some senior athletes in the British team. I recall one household name telling me that, rather than fooling around with oxygen-capacity testing on a treadmill, I'd be better off going out and running an extra 10 miles."

Exhortations to put himself through the grinder were insultingly out of place. Peter Coe (the son fell into the habit of employing the Christian name everybody in athletics used to address his father) never allowed an enthusiasm for advanced techniques to dilute his belief in the value of relentless endurance work. If his professional background as an engineer made him particularly comfortable about enlisting scientific methods, his experiences as a useful racing cyclist helped to provide a practical understanding of the sort of fitness that translated into excellence on the day of competition. As Sebastian's athletic career developed, perhaps the most vital of its governing tenets was that a track runner, whatever his distance, could not hide from speed.

"We concentrated on both speed and endurance," said the performing member of the partnership. "The real art was melding the two together so that you had the ability at championship level to put four, five, perhaps even six races back to back and still keep enough in the tank to produce real pace when it mattered. And always we recognised that you couldn't hide from speed. If you weren't fast enough at 800 metres, you couldn't solve your problem by going up to 1500 and then to 5,000 and 10,000. These days the last laps in 10,000 metre races are being run in 51-52 seconds. Most of the men who were on hand in our day to be considered by Peter as middle-distance role models were guys you couldn't have taken down to a running track and expected, when they were fresh, to run a lap in 51 or 52 seconds. Many of them would have been pushed to get inside 60 seconds.

"We realised that much more was required and, from the age of 16 or 17, a lot of my training was done with 200-metre and 400-metre specialists. That was increasingly the case when I went to university at Loughborough to study economics. Afterwards, when people talked about my leg speed and my change of pace, there was a tendency to think those assets were entirely natural, advantages that came to me ready-made at birth. There is obviously a genetic foundation. If I hadn't been born with the right physiology, I couldn't have done what I did as an athlete. But the changes of gear that were so important to me would never have been possible without the endless hours of quality speed work, much of it done with international sprinters. Yet when that is given its due, the double-kick seems to have been something I had the luck to draw in the genetic lottery. Kicking away off a dawdling pace is easy, but the ability to accelerate again when you are 95% flat out must be attributed to physiology."

All along the way, nature was assisted by plenty of self-sacrifice. Eight years after Coe was born in west London, his father's job caused the family to move to Sheffield, and the hilly landscape of that part of Yorkshire and the adjoining Peak District of Derbyshire provided "very tough, very good terrain" for an aspiring athlete. He was training regularly as a 13-year-old, and a couple of years later was undertaking two sessions a day. "Everywhere from my front door was effectively up, and there was a run we used to do often that was uphill for 10 miles," he remembers. "We'd be out in all weathers, me running and my father driving alongside, an odd couple having conversations through the car window. Often he would have music on and once in a storm of swirling snow and hail, when I had 14 miles on the road to do, he said, 'I don't know what you've got out there, but I've got Wagner in here'. I told him it was pretty Wagnerian where I was, too."

On such days, he did not feel much like the epitome of grace, the two-legged gazelle of public perception. "People who watched me in the arena couldn't be expected to be aware of the two training sessions on Christmas Day, or the Commando-type conditioning course in the gym, with weight-lifting and rope climbing. Or the occasions when I ran 800 metres six times in a row, with just 45 seconds or a minute of rest in between, averaging about 1.50sec per run and once throwing in a 1.46. Racing meant a day off for me. There is no doubt it was all worthwhile. By 1981, which I still consider my best competitive season, physically and mentally, I felt there were no chinks in my armour.

"It was in the June of that year that I went over to Florence, mainly because I love Italy and fancied running on a warm Italian night, and did 1.41.73 for the 800. That world record stood until Wilson Kipketer broke it in September 1997. Considering that the 800 is a fundamental part of every major athletics meeting, the longevity of the record puts it in a very special category among the greatest satisfactions of my career. And I see it as perhaps the most shining testimony to my father's coaching. In 1981, I was just about unbeatable at 800 and 1500. Top athletes have those years and that was mine."

The man who was talking to me is now Lord Coe but, though our principal conversation took place in a plain room buried deep in the Houses of Parliament, and his words were boomingly punctuated by Big Ben, the image of him in ermine robes (or even the business suit he wore that day) could not compete with memories of how he looked when stretching the limits of human capability in a runner's vest. His driving power came in a small package. Standing 5ft 9ins tall, he weighed between 9st 4lbs and 9st 7lbs at his best. He is currently only about half-a-stone heavier and his overall appearance hasn't changed much, certainly not the black hair that still clusters luxuriantly above features fine enough to have encouraged some in the past to suspect that his spirit, too, might be delicate. There was a crushing answer in the resolution with which he rebounded from disastrous tactical ineptitude in the 800 metres at the Moscow Olympics of 1980 - "the very worst 800m of my 20-year career" was brilliantly penalised by a flawless charge to the gold medal from his arch rival, Steve Ovett - to win the 1500 metres six days later. Those suspicions were emptied of conviction long before another comeback, this time from injury and a serious, debilitating illness, saw him repeat his 1500 triumph at the Los Angeles Games of 1984.

Coe's political resurrection as a life peer, following his loss in the last election of the Falmouth and Camborne seat he won for the Tories in 1992, has been accomplished without conspicuous need of his courage and determination. His period as an MP was marked by little more notable than his appointment as a government whip. He could, no doubt, have become Sports Minister but rightly identifies the post as being without real power, responsibility or accountability: "It's the only job in government without a budget, one where any problem is handed over to other organisations."

He is back at Westminster as William Hague's private secretary, confidant and judo partner. His boss is, he acknowledges, a far more committed student of judo. But if the going got rough on the mat, Coe would have no trouble putting a bit of distance between them. He says that, at 43, his running is "just to tick over, to keep moving". Then he mentions that he covers 25 miles a week.

With the crowded schedule imposed by his work for the leader of the opposition, and the pleasant demands of family life with his wife Nicola (whose skills on horseback took her to victory in the Badminton three-day event of 1990) and their two sons and two daughters, the eldest of whom is eight, he is left with little chance of spectating at football and boxing as often as he would wish. He is an ardent fan of both and, although his devotion to Chelsea is deep, he admits when pressed that his passion for boxing outweighs even his love of the ball game. His favourite British boxer of any era he is in a position to assess is Ken Buchanan, which proves that, in matters of the ring, there is nothing naïve about his judgment.

Forming a league table of his own achievements on the track is an impossibility for him. However, having collected Olympic 1500 gold and 800 silver in both Moscow and Los Angeles (the dual triumph at the longer distance is unique), he says the later success in America resonates with more satisfaction. That reaction is unsurprising, in view of the horrors of injury and sickness that threatened to prevent him from competing in 1984.

If 1981 was an annus mirabilis - in addition to the wonder of his 800 in Florence, he lowered the world mile record twice in 10 August days, recalling how he had broken the 800, mile and 1500 records within 41 days in 1979 - what occurred afterwards would have wrecked the ambition of many an athlete. The worst of a plague of problems on the approach to LA was being struck down by toxoplasmosis, a relatively rare blood disease that was slow to yield to diagnosis and then necessitated prolonged, intense and frequently uncomfortable hospital treatment. But he overcame every obstacle and demolished the field in the 1500m final.

Of course, whatever his own perspective, the public will always regard his two clashes with Ovett at the 1980 Olympics as the most dramatic episode of his career. Both men had been enthralling the athletics world with a barrage of dazzling performances and the mass craving to see them go head to head was at last to be satisfied in Moscow. There was never a possibility that the runners themselves could remain aloof from such intensity. "The rivalry did seem to polarise the country," Coe conceded. "You were either for Steve or for me. Somebody, presumably a humorist at British Airways, managed to book us in seats next to one another on the way out to Moscow. But that was too much Glasnost in one go. The seating was rearranged.

"I didn't really know Steve until 1984 but suggestions that I was churlish to him on the rostrum after the Moscow 800 (where he ran perfectly to achieve his purpose, and I did the opposite) are nonsense. That's not my style. How I felt had nothing to do with Steve. If Mother Teresa had been on the rostrum with me I'd have behaved the same. It was about disappointment with myself. In the call-up room before the 1500, in that small space in the bowels of the stadium where the tension was unbearable, I remember Steve looking across at me and saying, 'When all this is done we should have a drink'. My only response was a kind of grunt. He had a gold medal and my silver made me feel empty-handed. I wasn't in chatty mode."

But that 1500 went beautifully for Coe and he won smoothly. Subsequently he was delighted to have Ovett as a guest at his wedding. They don't meet up much but the mutual respect is huge. It should be equalled by the nation's gratitude to the two of them.

Ivan,

Does your guy run in Boston now? Those stats look familiar.

Trackhead,

As far as training, I am in adamant agreement with most of what you post, specifically:

1) The need to work on top end speed year round.

2) The need for general base work to be at comfortable paces.

3) The need for a considerable amount of LT work for the middle distances up.

So, keep preaching there.

BTW I've tried both. And my experience was that I felt flat with a high milage program. The longer intervals didn't get me properly prepared to run 800 meter pace. Even though I had more endurance at the end of a race I wasn't able to keep up with the leaders because I spent the first 600 meters running out of my comfort zone.

--I agree that one must have the ease of good speed to make the first 400-600 feel relatively easy. However, Rich Kenah did make a breakthrough in his 800m races when he introduced a long run in a his base phase which lasted up to 16 miles (i think). In this case, he benefited from endurance work. But, if an 800m runner goes overboard on the endurance work, and does not keep turnover going, than they could loose their good speed. I personally think that one is most benefited by a continous tempo run (up to 20-25 mins for a 800m), in which the mixture of continuity, a fairly quick pace, and distance force the athlete's body to become more tolerant of fatigue; thus,the body is stronger, and the legs don't become dead and slow from to much distance. So maybe the long run should be in the 60-90 minute range during the base phase, with the upper range used sparingly.

I coach in New England. jsbuzz19@yahoo.com

In a foot race if you are going to be feeling comfortable you are not working hard enough every time you race weather it is a 400m or a marathon you always want to hurt because that gives you a good knowing that you are running to your potential....

no one is discounting proper track work -- just read what renato does with his athletes.

There are two types of 800m runners in the world. There are the 800/1500 guys and the 400/800m guys. Depending how much natural speed you have determines what kind of runner you are. My pr in the 800 is just under 1:48 and I think the key to that is my natural speed over 400m which I kind of got away from when I got in college. In high school I could split 47 low any day of the week on the 4x400 and the only time I ran the open 400 I ran 48.3. Now there is the Johnathan Johnson/Mark Sylverster who can 45-46 over 800m. This makes that first 400m feel like a breeze. Then There is the Nate Brannen type 800m runner than can run sub in the mile because he has great endurance. My point is that you have to find your strength and develop it. The 400/800 guy doesn't need but about 15-20 miles a week where as the 800/1500 guy needs about 35-50 miles a week. Mileage thrown in with the combination of hill work and long intervals in the winter would be very helpful. Quality 6-7 mile runs would the most beneficial rather than long slow 10 mile runs. Then when mid season comes around, start the speed work. 400/800 meter guy does long intervals like 20x200 or multiple 400 and 600 to build the strength they need to go along with the natural speed. You just have to find your nitch and refine it.

i'll say it again: you will not run near your potential in the 800m unless you develop your aerobic capabilities.

the amount of basic speed you have will determine how much aerobic fitness you require to run a quality 800m. Juanterena's 44.1 added with a couple long runs made for a 1:43 man.

Peter Snell's 48.0 440 and thousands and thousands of miles made for a 1:44.3 (on 300y grass track).

Sebastian Coe's 46.5s 400m speed coupled with his endurance training made for a 1:41 800m runner.

To run sub 1:42 you need a combination of attributes:

minimum 46s speed. superior aerobic capacities must be needed for a 46s runner to run 1:42 or better.

if your speed is in the 45 or 44 range, you don't require as much in order to achieve the same performance.

again, from Renato:

About 800m, of course a top runner must run 400m in 46.0 or less. Wilfred Bungei, that never was very fast, 10 days before winning Bruxelles with 1:42.52 ran in Davos, in a training-test, 45.07 hand timed, and also Yiampoy is able running under 46.0. About Joseph Mutua, I personally clocked him in 43.9 during last stage of relay last year in World Military Championships. But, regarding long distance runners, the situation is completely different....For example, if you accept the idea that 800m can be an event having from 40 to 70 % of lactic involvement, you can have at the top athletes like Juantorena or Konchellah or Fiasconaro, coming from 400m, or like Coe, Cram, Bucher, coming from more long distances. For ex., speaking about Bucher, he was a former runner in World Cross Country Championships when was junior, and began his activity running 10000m. In 2001, I personally saw him in St. Moritz (1800m of altitude) running one day 3 times 200m in 21.5 / 21.7 / 21.6 with 8 min recovery, and the day after a 10000m on track in 30:18. So, it's very difficult, if not impossible, to compare different athletes following a table like that one. Of course, we know that for running 3:26 El Guerrouj MUST run 800m in 1:44, but he doesn't need running in 1:42, as he is able running 5 km under 12:50 (probably in 12:40 next year). But we know also that, if Yiampoy accepts to move to 1500, he must run under 1'43" for beeing able running in 3'28", because for him isn't possible to arrive to 5000m. For ex., Robert Rono (3:30.99) in the period of his max. shape, was able running 1:47.73 on 800m and only 48.8 in a relay. Steve Cram, able running under 3:30, had a personal best of 1:42.88 on 800m also if never was able running under 48.5 in 400m (and 47.5 in relay in his best season).

Track Head you have your opinion. One that I don't agree with and many others do not either. What you state may work for some, but not for all. Stop trying to prove how right you are by listing all these WC runners who trained in a way that leads credence to your beliefs. Fine, for some people 80 miles a week will work. For many it will not. However, some of your statements are factually innaccurate and I think after your previous 10 posts on the subject we all understand that you don't agree with this method of training. That is why the world is filled with coaches, no one way is right for everyone. Yours may work for you, but not for me.