Fine. If you want a poorer marathon than you already have, by all means mail away.
Fine. If you want a poorer marathon than you already have, by all means mail away.
Lifetime Motor City Strider wrote:
A guest wanted me to ask this question. Why wait to DQ or at least make a ruling?
1. They already know his splits (1:15-1:07).
2. They have no eyewitness of the incident.
What possible new information could they attain at this time that could help in making a decision?
Actually quite a bit. Like the email/phone discussion I had with Pat Ball about what I witnessed, which helped her to know at what point he had not reached 6th place, proving that it would have been physically impossible for him to make up the time difference. We also managed to determine the likely turn/means by which the course was cut.
As for the Hansen's fiasco last year that you mention, that was not race management's fault. The only reason it became an issue at all was because of the one Hansen brother throwing a temper tantrum at the finish line.
While I agree the winner should show up at awards, your misguided and illogical letter-writing campaign is not going to help anything. If your arguments in your letters are as inept as here, you don't stand to accomplish much.
Would someone mind spelling out exactly what the "Hansens fiasco from last year" was all about? I'm not familiar with it.
Average_Joe, it was really no big deal. Hanson relay runners ran with a Hanson guy running the marathon. A Kenyan guy tagged along. Some pushing and shoving occurred during the race. Kenyan outkicked Hanson runner, and Hanson brother (being competitively wrapped up in the race.. like I would love my sponsor - if I had one- to be) got pissed and told the Kenyan as much after the race. All of it was just words and a little indoor-track-like shoving.. I thought it was silly that so much was made of it.
Anyway, attached is the link to last year's thread. The only posts I recall as being worth reading is the article in the paper and the response from the Hanson brother. Everything else was just noise.
You are now forever indebted, Joe.
Lifetime Motor City Strider wrote:
That is an interesting suggestion (writing a letter to those responsible). That is exactly how I handled it last year while disgusted by several occurances and a whole lot of negative press. I complained about how the Hansen-Kirwa fiascal went down. I complained about how Mr. Kirwa the eventual winner never showed to the awards ceremony and how bad it reflected on the event.
u seem to like to complain a lot.
Lifetime Motor City Strider wrote:
That is an interesting suggestion (writing a letter to those responsible). That is exactly how I handled it last year while disgusted by several occurances and a whole lot of negative press. I complained about how the Hansen-Kirwa fiascal went down. I complained about how Mr. Kirwa the eventual winner never showed to the awards ceremony and how bad it reflected on the event.
u seem to like to complain a lot.
Kevin acted like a jerk but that wasn't the issue. The issue that most disturbed me was that Doug Kurtis ok'd the situation beforehand (substantiated by Pat Ball the race director). That was mistake #1. After the fact, Doug denied any knowledge of the pacing situation (lied his ass off as to not accept responsibility). That was mistake #2. I will never shop at Hansens over this issue but the more I witness the more I realize where the real problem lies. If the sponsors don't see it as a problem then race management haas nothing to worry about. We just want them to know how their money is being spent.
I think you should boycott the Letsrun site as well as the Hanson's. That'll show us!
Lifetime Motor City Strider wrote:
Kevin acted like a jerk but that wasn't the issue. The issue that most disturbed me was that Doug Kurtis ok'd the situation beforehand (substantiated by Pat Ball the race director). That was mistake #1. After the fact, Doug denied any knowledge of the pacing situation (lied his ass off as to not accept responsibility). That was mistake #2. I will never shop at Hansens over this issue but the more I witness the more I realize where the real problem lies. If the sponsors don't see it as a problem then race management haas nothing to worry about. We just want them to know how their money is being spent.
Have these people kidnapped your children or ripped off your ATM card?
There seems to be a rather odd sense of hostility towards them.
Just wondering, what did happen with the Hanson's at last year's Freep Marathon?
Oh my, I am tempted to offer a few feelings on this thread but my fellow letsrun readers seem to have summarized what I'd want to say nicely in reply to: Lifetime Motor City Strider member. It troubles me when I don't know the identity, you know, the actual name, of people when I'm 'talking' w/them. It especially troubles me that I don't know the name of the LMCS because he carries on so. Knowing who it is wouldn't change how I'd reply. I'd just like to know the name because I like to know 'my accusers'.
Not shopping with the Hanson's is definetly dissapointing, but has it been so long since you have shopped with them that you have forgotten how to spell the name? Honestly, that whole thing happened a year ago and Kevin has made his statements about his reation. Last years situation is a dead issue on this thread.
As I said before, the Hollingsworth dude has been DQ'ed, so why not just do your letter writing complaining in private instead of letting us all know about your personal dislike for Kevin Hanson and the shops he and Keith own, and Doug Kurtis? I'm sure the world would be a much better place to you if you and some other striders owned Hanson's stores and the striders were in total charge of the marathon. But thats not the way it is. If this is how you handle life's unfortunate situations, I fell bad for you.
You sir, are an idiot. The Detroit Marathon is a disgraceful piece of crap. It has not improved much under the leadership of Kurtis. He is a bit two faced and is totally a self promoting blowhard. That is why I was pretty much with you until now. You arguments are not very strong and I think you will ultimately cause more harm than good. But where I really lose you is on the subject of the Hanson's. They should be supported by everyone for their unselfish support of the sport at all levels. I think people should go out of their way to shop there and for you to decide you won't shop there because of what happened last year is so stupid I don't have a word for it. What is wrong with getting emotional to defend and protect your runner? The Hansons should be looked up to not criticized by certified fools like yourself. You work as an advocate for Doug Kurtis the more you speak on this subject in my opinion.
Don't actually have anything new to add -- just to echo what everyone else is saying. I simply CANNOT BELIEVE that you're writing to get sponsors to stop funding a running event. Because really, there are just so many other sponsors who are dying to step up and pump money into the sport to make sure there's a marathon next year.
Your unbelievable selfishness makes me physically ill. Thanks, on behalf of underfunded and underappreciated races everywhere.
Hedge wrote:
Average_Joe, it was really no big deal. Hanson relay runners ran with a Hanson guy running the marathon. ...
You are now forever indebted, Joe.
I appreciate the background info.
-Joe
p.s. since that link takes me exactly nowhere, I hereby declare the debt null and void.
:-)
Dang link!!!
I shall try again....
article in Detroit newspaper:
Kenyan's late kick pays off
October 22, 2001
BY BILL LAITNER
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER
He led Sunday's 26-2-mile marathon for just the length of a football field.
But as he rounded the last corner of the race -- at Rosa Parks and West Jefferson -- reed-thin Jacob Kirwa of Kenya outraced a pack of runners he had followed for miles, including a Michigander who crossed the finish line only steps behind.
About 300 yards from the finish, Kirwa wasn't sure he could do it.
"I had some pain in my shoes. I said, 'Oh, no, that's going to give me trouble sprinting,' " he said.
Instead, Kirwa, 25, earned his first marathon victory -- the 24th Detroit Free Press/Flagstar Bank International Marathon, in 2:17:49. He took home a $3,000 cash prize to Chapel Hill, N.C., where he lives much of the year.
With an average pace of 5:16 a mile, Kirwa said he held himself back on all but the final stretch of the course to avoid repeating "a silly mistake" he made two weeks ago -- darting to the front of the pack at a marathon in Providence, R.I. He finished eighth there.
"Today I just took it easy, like I was doing a long run," he said. He finished four minutes behind his fastest marathon, 2:13 in Denmark in 1998. That surprised some race watchers, who expected a faster finish on the flattest Free Press course ever. Altered just last month to eliminate border crossings, in wake of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, the new course did not include inclines at the Ambassador Bridge and the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel.
Kirwa, 5-feet-7, 119 pounds, admitted that, throughout much of the race, he took shelter from gusty winds behind other runners.
As Kirwa stepped away from the finish line, he heard catcalls from Kevin Hanson of Sterling Heights, who owns Hansons Running Shops with his brother Keith.
"I hope you share some of that money! I hope you know you had some help!" shouted Kevin Hanson, whose chain of running-shoe shops sponsored second-place finisher Chris Wehrman, 25, of Okemos, and several relay-team racers.
Hanson was furious that his team members led the race through tough headwinds while Kirwa hung back.
"He sucked off of our guys for 25 miles. He was totally dependent on our guys to set the pace and take the wind," Hanson said from the sidelines, as photographers snapped Kirwa's picture. Wehrman's official time was just one second behind the winner.
Hanson response:
Hanson [guest] from LetsRun.com
sour grapes Posted 10-22-2001 18:03
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I apologize if you view my behavior as sour grapes. Let me try to explain. The Detroit Marathon has been an awful event from the point of quality runners for the past few years. Several second level Kenyans and their agents have been aware of this and have had an easy payday with the likes of 2:24 winning times. (I do not begrudge them one bit for taking advantage of a failing U.S. system). As a businessman and owner of 4 running stores in the Detroit Metropolitan Area, this has been bad for our running community. Why? 1. Because the local running community is lacking in HEROS. Kenyans can't fill that bill. They have no vested interest in whether or not this is a succesful event nor should they. They will not be speaking to locals about our wonderful sport, they will not be in schools today talking to youngsters about why we are involved in the best sport in the world. They will not allow the running public to embrace them as they are simply onto the next town to collect. 2. The Detroit marathon added the relays last year to try to revive a failing event. I approached Doug Kurtis (race director) about some of our guys running the relay at 2:20 pace and trying to get a large group of up and comers from anywhere in the country to come and take advantage. He thought it was a great idea and used it as a carrot to try to improve the performances up front while recruiting possible athletes. The Kenyans and their agents hated the idea because they realized that they could no longer run 2:24 and pick up an easy paycheck. This is what started the friction. The race developed with pushing and shoving from the beginning, our guys continually asked everyone to relax and recognize that we were there to make the race faster for everyone. The eventual winner was not happy with that idea and clipped heals of whoever was leading the entire race. one relay member after another would finish and ask me what the deal was with him (elbows being thrown, cutting up on sidewalks to cut the course, clipping heals). Our athletes moved over to allow him to lead on several occasions as they thought they were slowing him down. He wanted the pace to be faster but he wanted our guys who were running to take it for him, we refused as the pace was fast enough. I have no problem with him winning I just thought he did in very poor style. I wished he would of run 2:15 and won by 3 minutes. I probably overreacted because of all of the above info. My money comment was intentional because I new that that was the reason for everything. I personally could care less about the money otherwise I wouldn't donate over $200,000 a year to the sport. In answering your question over whether Chris would have shared his paycheck the answer is yes, he is sharing it with the pacesetters. I don't know if this makes the situation better or worse but I thought I should explain. I am sorry that you viewed it as sour grapes.
Hanson [guest] from LetsRun.com
sour grapes Posted 10-22-2001 19:11
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I had allready probably overreacted, and I felt like approaching race management to ask for a DQ would really be viewed as sour grapes. I did feel the necessity to say something as I am just too passionate about everything to let it go. I almost felt like a baseball manager going out to argue a call to protect his player. I didn't think it would do any good but I hoped my athlete would know that I was in his corner. The one major regret that I have is that this is the story and not Chris's wonderful accomplishment. I apologize Chris and great job 2:17:50 in your first, great start.
Yeah, I'm right with you Motor City Strider.. I could never bring myself to buy shoes from such a beacon in the running community. (note a little sarcasm).
1. Whether my boycott or negative publicity of Hansons was the reason, I couldn't help but notice that it didn't occur this year. No Pacing done by Hansons.
2. My intent is not to have the sponsors pull their $$$ but instead to have change at the top. However, if they see this as not a worthy investment that would be the fault of Race management not my pointing out what the faults are. I would rather our community not have a Marathon than have a half-assed one.
3. Maybe my perception of Kevin Hanson was wrong, he has always been polite to me. I just felt a need to express my disappointment in his behavior last year. I do respect him as I feel that he is a stand up guy. I can't say that I feel the same about Doug Kurtis. I noticed that in every article involving this years situation no comment from Doug the man that in his clinic referred to the Free Press Marathon as "his marathon".
Motor City Strider, I know Dr. Kozloff left on negative terms with the race. I don't know the details maybe you can fill them in.
I guess I'm asking are you bitter that your club is not organizing and directing the race?
Just so you know I am not a Doug Kurtis fan, nice guy but he is full of himself.
Oh my, I'm tempted to add to this thread but note that a number of level-headed folks have nicely summarized the kinds of things I might say in reply to LMCS. I don't plan to say much for a simple reason: I don't know LMCS's name. I feel much more comfortable having a discussion with somebody that's really there rather than hiding behind a pseudonym. I don't care for anonymous accusatory comments. Please, tell me your name. Make my day!
MCS,
You are right on the mark, although I am not part of the 42 individuals that met at your house the other night. I believe you are doing the right thing. Go to run-insight.com and read Fred Keiser's account of the marathon from an elite runners point of view. It is terrible that this is how the Elite's are treated in Detroit. It isn't suprizing how all of our local elites stay away in droves. Clint Verran is hoping to run 2:12 in chicago. Jim Jurcevich (msu & hansons alum) chose Twin Cities to run his 2:16 debut. Chris Wehrman 2:17:50 last year opted for Twin Cities this year. Kyle Baker the Michigan runner of the year chose Chicago for his debut. Carl Rundell 5th american at Boston chose Chicago rather than Detroit. All of these athletes with roots here in Michigan opted to run elsewhere.
Fred's account his humorous and sad at the same time. Not only should Elite Athletes be given free entry to the Pre race Pasta Dinner, they should be required to be there. Don't the race directors understand that it is a thrill for us common folk to rub elbows with the elites. No transportation for the elites to the starting line is unacceptable and unheard of. The list goes on.
I will also write a letter to Flagstar Banks and include Fred Keiser's account of the race.