Testing Distance Runners..... Bekele

Pro Cyclist wrote:

Hey, I didn't say in my post that I or anyone else was clean during thoes years.

Why should we trust you on anything else you have to say on the subject, since you are an admitted cheat and liar? I love the attitude: I am a cheater and liar, therefore everyone else who is any good in the world in every other sport must be a cheater and liar too. It's like suddenly taking every word of Victor Conte's as the gospel (as some do).

And if your point is simply: 'i think there are a lot of track and field athletes that dope,' then thanks for the new information, this is new ground that we haven't plowed yet on LetsRun. Of course there are.

And to those that think it is clear all the best africans dope, I suppose you are also 100% sure that Ryan Hall dopes too, right? I mean, I used to always hear that the "real WR" if there were no drugs would be around (conveniently the best time by a "white" guy) 2:07. Well, Hall has smashed that barrier, and if his pace were more even in his last race (they went out crazy fast), many think he would have run 2:05-high. Hey, that is just about the same as KK's best, and most on LetsRun are sure he is a doper. And only a handful of Africans have ever run faster than 2:05-high. And according to you and most on letsRun, all those guys are doped.

So all you 'the-times-run-today-are-just-too-fast' cynics are in 100% agreement: RYAN HALL IS A DOPER. Right?

Sorry mate but Lance was not clean. I was in a few races with him back in the mid 90's and like all the other top guys he was on EPO micro-doses. I dont want my thread to spin into a Lance thing. I also like the point that most of the training camps in Kenya and other African nations were set up by Italian DR's. And in the world of athletics there is no dirtier DR's than the Italians. In the world of cycling in the 90's most of the drug culture was started in Italy and all of us tried to keep up. I just think that running both track or road needs to do more, because I don't believe that there are all these pro's running fast times and NONE of them ever show positive. And dont think that just because the Africans came to the game of running later than other nattions that that is why they can take chuncks of time off of previously solid WR's. I don't know a whole ton about the womens side of things but it is very strange that the WR in the marathon is so much faster than the 2nd fastest time ever. See in my mind that sends up a red flag. I have heard that Paula is a great gal but I bet Bekele's supporters think the same of him.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Team Slipstream. I get the sense (based on their reaction to winning the Giro TTT) that their conscience's are clean and so is their blood. Are they on the right track to lead cycling back into some clean years or is it all a marketing ploy to get sponsors to flock to them rather than teams like Astana?

Maybe they just train harder, smarter, and better than anyone ever has before (or maybe they are just freaks).

They have a running culture. If the kids in the US were interested in Running like they are in Basketball, Football, etc., then I'm sure with a larger pool of athletes there would be more kids that are faster. The best athletes in the US play ball sports. The best athletes in Africa run.

ok, then answer me this:

if you are so sure all the best distance runners dope, then why haven't non-africans improved their times(as a group_ much over the last 20-25 years, which is the era of EPO and new designer steroids, hgh, etc??? (look it up, very little improvement in the non-african[ie, rest of the world] records over the last 20 years) You've already proven that white cyclists have no problem cheating, then why not white runners?

Where are all the white guys running faster than Moorcroft's 13:00 ? we've only had 2 clean ones (Bauman tested positive) beat that time in a QUARTER CENTURY.

How many non-africans have beaten Barrios' former WR from nearly 20 years ago? A big fat zero.

How many non-africans have beaten Cram and Coe's prs from over 20 years ago in the 1500m ??? ONE.

Steve Jones went out in 1:01:4x and ran near 2:07-low over 20 years ago. With any sort of even pace, he would have went 2:06:30 easy. How many non-africans have beaten that time since? A couple.

CONCLUSION TIME:(drum roll please)-

Your hypothesis is that PED's work really well, and that most top runners use them. If this true, then based on my stats showing lack of significant improvement in "non-african World Bests", one of the following must be true:

1) White distance runners don't cheat, only non-white ones (ie, the africans) do

2) Good white distance runners don't cheat , only the bad ones do (with the implication that there are either no good white distance runners around to cheat, or that there are still a few around, but they just don't cheat)

I have a hard time believing either of those choices. The next possibility is:

Some part of your hypothesis is wrong, and one of the below is true:

3) Plenty of good white distance runners are still around, and plenty of them cheat, but the drugs don't work as well you think they should.

4) The drugs work, but there are not as many cheaters as you think. If there were, the "white distance WR's" would have improved more.

So which is it? Why have the "african WR's" improved so much, but not the "white WR's" ? I know that on the face of it, I am making an argument for the idea that the Africans are the big cheaters, and not the white runners. But that is not what I feel. What I feel is that while there are of course cheaters in distance running, drugs have not had as much impact on WR's as you think. I think that talent is the super-drug, and that is why the africans are so great(they have a prevalence of super-talented runners), and that is also why Ryan Hall can run 2:05 clean (because super-talented genetic freak runners pop up all over the globe occasionally. Mottram is another example).

What is your explanation for the phenomenon I have described?

Pro Cyclist wrote:

Sorry mate but Lance was not clean. I was in a few races with him back in the mid 90's and like all the other top guys he was on EPO micro-doses.

Maybe Lance was doping, but this is about the least compelling evidence for it I have ever heard. I suppose he was micro-dosing while riding in the race?

By the way, I don't believe you were ever a professional cyclist. You can't even spell your team's name correctly -"Palmans-Collstrop." Collstrop has two L's.

Good troll.

Pro Cyclist wrote:

Hey, I didn't say in my post that I or anyone else was clean during thoes years. You have to understand that if I didn't I would not have made a living doing it. Not proud of the fact. Trust me my kid will know all about it when she is old enough. I also know that USADA is like all of the other world NGB's and it is about medal count and world records. Do you really think that any of them were shocked about Marion. NO WAY, they all knew. That is why I wondered about running, how many times are the worlds big marathons tested?

USADA is independent of the NGBs and the USOC. It was set up that way to avoid many problems with the USOC having to produce medals and at the same time police the sport. USADA cares nothing about the medal count; their performance is not tied to it in anyway.

I know that in the past Boston, Chicago and NY have been tested (I know many doping control officers). I know that one factor in the Majors is that they have testing (several marathons got together for a series of a sort and all agreed to testing). Plus, as noted in the rules (you can look up the IAAF rule book on line) for a WR to be accepted doping control must take place.

Cyclist, you are out of your league here.

First, you say that NGBs like USATF and groups like WADA have a vested interest in protecting American stars. And yet that runs in direct contrast to the fact that Justin Gatlin, track's biggest star at the time, tested positive AT THE KANSAS RELAYS. Explain that one, genius.

Second, what do you know about Kenya and Ethiopia? Between the two of them, they sat out five Olympic Game between 1976 and 1988. Ethiopia had famines and a dictatorship that killed scores of Ethiopians during this time. It wasn't until the early 1990s that it was finally removed. It was also around that time that more money became available for these runners to chase, and thus more incentive for those in the countryside to try their hand at racing. At the same time, football and Europe became a much more lucrative sport drawing many potentially talented distance runners away from athletics.

My suggestion: stick to cycling.

Hey Arch Stanton when I was riding for them Palmans wasn't a sponsor. Collstrop was the major sponsor with SEFB(Bank) and Maes(Beer) the co sponsors and I don't care what you think I know what I was doing thoes years. The whole point of the thread was to find out the testing that goes on in running, where I think it is more limited that cycling. If runners were tested as often as cyclist there would be more positives that is my point. I think what Jonathon Vaughters is doing at Slipstream is great, that is what all teams need to do. He was ran out of Postal for what he wouldn't do...dope. That is why he went to a French team that had a DS that was very anti-doping. And to fill you in EPO micro dosing doesn't happen during the race it is in the weeks build up to an event. That way your system doesn't have a large amount of EPO your body cant use.

Sir LA,

I see what you're trying to accomplish with your post but there are so many holes in your argument that all you've accomplished is to further muddy the waters.

There is no denying that Africans take the act of running to artistic levels. No one can argue that their participation on the world stage has had a tremendous impact on distance running for the better. It’s opened a new mindset to what is possible.

Unfortunately the current doping situation has devolved into an Iraq war type of argument; you are either in support of the war and are patriotic or you don’t support the war and are unpatriotic. This is a mindless argument that tries to simplify the reality of the situation.

In your argument it would appear to you that if you suspect the Africans of doping you are some whacked out, white guy who can’t accept the fact that the Africans are just a whole lot better. A counter argument would then be that if you don’t suspect them of cheating you’ve got your head in the sand. Either way the real problem is that it is not that easy to throw a blanket over it.

So here's another way to think of it; Barry Bonds was arguably one of the best baseball players ever before he doped. He went from 40 to 50 home runs a year to 60 to 70. So when Barry doped he brought the game to a whole new level.

This is what appears to be happening with the Africans. I say 'appears' because I have no clue if they are doping or not (I hope not) but, to not see the Italians Dr’s, former dopers and other assorted suspects all over team Kenyan and Ethiopia as a cause for concern is down right gullible.

Testing is a joke. Nobody in their right mind can say that testing is an effective deterrent to the drugs they are using today. Frequency and location of testing almost has the opposite effect, we’ve all heard the, “I’m the most tested athlete on the planet and all my test have come back negative, blah, blah, blah” rant of dopers before they’ve been caught.

As to the progression of non-African records there are a myriad of explanations that could help to augment your argument and also cast it aside. I will say that in the wild west days of the 80's I roomed with steroid taking football players (who would inject each other with the same needles) and trained with doping pro triathletes trying to catch the big 4 (because they knew they were using also). Nobody thought then that steroids were anything other than supplements to help you go a little bit faster than bee pollen. Now we know.

I also believe that America leads the way when it comes to doping. When a Jazz Saxophonist can develop an undetectable steroid what is holding back the experts at the major pharmaceuticals companies?

So enough with the righteous indignation (many of these types of posts remind me of the old Marion Jones threads) and time to objectively look at our sport with one eye towards hope and the other towards the likelihood of cheating by all its participants.

bcruns wrote:

The best athletes in the US play ball sports. The best athletes in Africa run.

In other words, American athletes who excel at ball sports could have excelled at distance running?

Some of the NFL wide receivers could have been great sprinters, but it's hard to imagine any football player or basketball player excelling at the mile and up. Could you see Shaquille or Eli racing the Kenyans or Ethiopians at 10k?

Yes, I know that JV dabbled in dope and like you said he admitted it in a round about way. I would like somebody to get on here who knows the testing procedures for major track events and marathons to let me know what they are. See in cycling we were tested at about every race on the UCI book is that the same in running if it is IAAF? I just wish most runners realized that the WR's are tainted.

Pro - c'mon man, track is pure as the driven snow, africans are afraid of needles and pills - besides, they just simply try harder, we all know that - as soon as you get with the program, you will understand. no one wants to hear your bs that distance records are tainted, because they are not, distance runners simply don't cheat! just because the world record hung out at ~2700 for years and years, then suddenly a once in a lifetime guy comes along and blows the doors off of 27:00 ... only to be followed by another who knocks the wr out of the park, they just tried harder, everyone here knows that.

Please tell me you are being sarcastic?

Living in the Past wrote:

In other words, American athletes who excel at ball sports could have excelled at distance running?

Some of the NFL wide receivers could have been great sprinters, but it's hard to imagine any football player or basketball player excelling at the mile and up. Could you see Shaquille or Eli racing the Kenyans or Ethiopians at 10k?

Obviously not Shaq and Eli, but what about the millions of kids who don't make the NFL, NBA, or MLB but still play ball sports throughout high school and college?

I was a solid baseball player growing up. I was one of the better guys on our freshman team, then played fall ball with the varsity team my sophomore year - only 3 of us from the freshman team were invited.

That winter I happened to give indoor track a shot because I'd always been fast and thought it would keep me in shape for baseball. I had some instant success, got hooked, and made the very difficult decision to quit baseball. Best decision I ever made. If I hadn't been lucky enough to try indoor track, I would have ended up as just another high school baseball clown. I would have beefed up and you never would have known that there was a good miler inside me.

It's not the Shaqs and Elis who could have been our best distance runners, it's the wannabe Shaqs and Elis who never gave running a chance.

I know a lot of guys who played soccer then switched to running and did very very well. Much better runners than they were at Soccer.

But were are talking more about 5k/10k/marathon here - white guys have had better success at the middle distances. And any guys who were good at the ball sports are not going to be distance phenoms.

Also, the best athletes in Africa are not running - they are playing soccer. Anyone who thinks running is more popular than soccer in Africa is delusional.

a miler wrote:

But were are talking more about 5k/10k/marathon here - white guys have had better success at the middle distances. And any guys who were good at the ball sports are not going to be distance phenoms.

They don't have to be good at the ball sports, just interested. Who knows, a potential gold medalist at 1500 meters may be riding the bench somewhere right now, but he won't quit his dead end sport for whatever reason.

Milers become top 5k/10k/marathoners all the time. Look at Ryan Hall and Bob Kennedy.

The fact that the WR stayed in the low 27s for a while is the reason why there was a big drop. Tell me if Barrios, Salazar or Rono could've run 3:31i for 1500m? If they had that speed they'd be running the mile.

The reason you saw a big drop in the 5000m and 10000m was because you had a lot guys with really good 1500m speed training for and racing 5000m and 10000m. Moorcroft got one good one off but he was so often injured that you can't possibly think that he ever aproached his potential.