I personally feel that Bekele is better then Haile G.

thinking about it, there is a possible meteorological flaw which does to some extent scupper result of distance race wr chases ( above 1.5k ) between evenly matched guyz ( aka geb v tergat over 10k )

a guy called asterix once proposed a wonderful theory ( i agree ) that "drafting" can save the drafted ~ 1s/lap ( it's in agreeance with jrm's calc )

now, consider a 10k wr chase, where after 5k, the wabbit drops out :

you are left with tergat leading for the next 11.5 laps with wanker geb not bothering to once do his share & then kick off him on last lap for wr

now, with theoretical max, tergat wouda given geb "11.5s" advantage by doing the drafting, so if geb didn't beat him by 11.5s on last lap, then it's not really a meaningful result of who is fastest over 10k

ok, 1s/lap may seem too much, but, i'm sure most woud agree a 0.20 - 0.25s/lap advantage isn't unreasonable

over 11.5 laps that's :

2.3 - 2.9s

if a geb doesn't at least beat a tergat by this much, then claim to being "intrinsically" fastest ever 10k guy lies with tergat ( worth applying that to a coupla og 10ks )

moral of story :

2 previously thought very, very closed matched guys over a longer distance shoudn't really ever race each other in a wr attempt race - if one wants to be constantly the drafted

one, she gets too much advantage to be considered the "greatest" unless they go on to win by a huge margin

& i'd suggest that's one good reason why coe/ovett didn't face each other over 1.5k/mile between '79 - '81

the wabbit normally dropped out at about 1k - 1100m, so who ever drafted 'til stretch-drive before kicking may have got anywhere between

~ 0.2 - 1s

in "energy saving"

( obviously you're not going to display 1s better kick in stretch because of it, but it will be better & you are effectively offering a handicap race between the 2 )

Geb didn't race Tergat in his 10k record runs though, in his 26:22 he won by over a minute, second place was 27:29. In his previous record, 26:31, which Tergat broke, second place was 27:17. Before that, he had the record at 26:43, which was broken by Salou Hissou. Second place in that race was 27:59. He was just as solo in those races as was Bekele in his records, so I'm not sure what the point is of all this math you're doing. And even if someone runs behind another runner for 9900 meters, and then outkicks them, the person who was being drafted does not get credit for being better, no matter what the physics are, in my opinion. They should've known better than to lead 24 laps against someone who is on the same level as them.

One thing I'd like to point out though, is that Geb had Komen to deal with at 3k and 5k, who was much better than anyone Bekele has faced, and was 4-1 against him. At 10k he had Tergat, who was much better than Sihine or anyone else currently, and was 22-4 against him, 14-0 on the track. When you are 18-1 on the track against two of track's greatest runners ever, that certainly says a lot to me.

worth noting tergat potential when racing geb

i'll be honest & tell you i have little idea of his likely potential, simply because he only has 1 class figure - his 26'27wr off no great even 5ks - & i doubt that was his peak ability ( '00 10k comes to mind ), his 7'28 he followed a pace too fast at 2k ( ~ 7'24 for leader ) & his 12'49 was with him fading badly at the end following again, a pace too quick for him ( geb & komen going close to 12'40 pace )

when he did he run his 10k wr, i think on the day his best line of fit was

~ 53.80 / 1'51.70

->

3'36.41

7'28.19

12'45.87

26'23.00

( but i'm not too sure about it )

1 thing i'm sure about - tergat was worth better over 10k in '00

ventolin wrote:

kennster got outkicked by

1) chebii, a man with a monster of a kick in ~52s in a race ending in close to 12'50

2) songok a 3'30 guy ( maybe not quite then ) in a ? 52/53 in a race won in 12'48

3) eliud with another quick lap in a 12'52 race

4) el g of course

geb never faced these calibre of kickers in his "prime" & i'd bet good money that in those particular races, they'd also have beaten him

I'm not sure how it helps Bekele's case to point out that he's been outkicked by all of those guys (as well as some others that you didn't name) during his peak years.

None of us knows who would win the mythical 10,000 between these two guys at their peak. But if there is a negligible difference in their time-trialing ability (and I really don't give much weight to a five-second reduction in the 10,000 world record over a number of years, especially where rabbits and track conditions play such a big role), then it makes sense to give the edge to the guy who would have the luxury (and very significant physiological advantage) of drafting for six miles. I'm guessing that would be Geb. But Bekele has surprised me a few times when he's pulled away from some fast guys over the last lap, so I don't feel tremendously confident about my guess. (If I were betting on Intrade, I might buy Geb to win at $53 to $55, but not at $58 to $60.)

Anyway, I'm like that 430miler guy. I root for Tergat, and am usually disappointed by the outcome.

the would probably be that people always bring up the fact that Bekele can get out kicked. Yet it is doubtful that Haile G. could hold off a surging El G. in a world championship race. And Kipchoge out kicked El G. when he did the same to Kenny B. Haile ran a 26:29 in 2003, the year Kenny B. won his first world title. So claiming Haile wasn't as good is bogus. Only once before had he ever ran faster. Bekele has 3 of the top 5 10k times in history, Haile and Tergat have one each. Both by the numbers and head to head their is no basis to claim Kenny B. isn't better then Haile. As far as the "era" argument, I see no real time difference between the two "eras" if you want to call them that.

read the post :

" geb never faced these calibre of kickers in his "prime" "

as for 10k wr attempts, obviously variations in pacing/wind/track, but we have to ignore wind considerations ( unless commentary about billowing flags ), track means nothing apart from rieti, but those 10k weren't run on rieti ( & besides there's a postulation for rieti's quickness which italian scientists need to test out :

http://mb.trackandfieldnews.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=27657&highlight=rieti

)

as for the drafting, i'd reckon kennster does have enough leeway in hand to be the wabbit from 5k on & "break" geb - i give him a good 5+s advantage in theoretical record attempts

Let Bekele get his second Olympic Gold first.

Sure thing.

hey wrote:

Haile ran a 26:29 in 2003, the year Kenny B. won his first world title. So claiming Haile wasn't as good is bogus.

The fact that Haile was still one of the best 10,000-meter runners in the world in 2003 (and is even now setting world records on the road a dozen years after he was smashing world records on the track) hardly counts as evidence that he was as good in that event in 2003 as he had been four to eight years earlier. None of us has any idea how much faster Haile could have run 10,000 meters at his peak if he had been pushed by someone who could match his finishing speed as well as his race times, or if he had had faster world records to chase. Moreover, as far as I recall, he never showed anywhere near his best finishing speed after 2000, so he no longer had the ability to control races from behind as he could when he was younger.

I do believe, by the way, that Bekele could crush all of the world road records if he chose to, including (after a period of event-specific training) the marathon.

(As for Haile holding off a "surging El G.," I don't know whether he could or not. But if he didn't think that he could, he probably wouldn't let the pace dawdle. Bekele has been beaten in a number of tactical races against runners with significantly slower PRs. I don't know if he overestimates his ability to match anyone over the last lap, or if he just has days when he isn't physically up to snuff. The 2004 Olympic 5,000 final was, of course, the most notable occasion. I kept expecting him (along with his domestique) to crank up the pace and make El G really hurt, and it never happened. I don't know why.)

(I actually didn't mean to get into a debate about any of this. I just had a few observations to make, and -- as often happens -- I ended up taking sides on something. I don't care who gets labeled the GOAT.)

hey wrote:

Haile ran a 26:29 in 2003, the year Kenny B. won his first world title. So claiming Haile wasn't as good is bogus. Only once before had he ever ran faster.

Because he hadn't lost much time off his previous 10k bests doesn't mean he was just as good. A championship race isn't just about having the best PR in that event, and while Geb may have still been able to run 26:29, I doubt he still had his 1500 and 3k wheels. And if you remember how that WC race went, Bekele, Geb, and Sihine basically eliminated the rest of the field after 5k, and the last few laps saw Bekele sitting behind Geb until about 150 to go, where he blew by him. We'll never know, but I don't think the Geb from 5 years earlier would've been outkicked in such a way by Bekele.

Yeah, Kenny B. made a huge tactical error in 2004. Said Sheehen and Kipchoge are the only people I'm aware of that out kicked El G. in the 5k, and those were faster paced races.

i dont know if this is true but ive heard that bekele has finished a 10k in 22:xx for the last 200. Can anybody clarify? ive heard that geb's fastest last 200 was in arount 24:xx. If that is true about bekele that would have to make him the best kicker in the world. Who else has those type of wheels at the end of distance race?

enduranceguy wrote:

i dont know if this is true but ive heard that bekele has finished a 10k in 22:xx for the last 200. Can anybody clarify? ive heard that geb's fastest last 200 was in arount 24:xx. If that is true about bekele that would have to make him the best kicker in the world. Who else has those type of wheels at the end of distance race?

This is not true. You must not be very smart about the sport.

No seriously. I know that it sounds absolutely ridiculous but i just read it on some website a few years ago. That is why I asked somebody to clarify instead of being a tool about it like the person who just responded to my post.

I doubt it. However, you could may be able to find video on line. 22 seconds is quite fast... I don't think Bekele could even do that fresh but who knows. I was a terrible sprinter, 26/57, but I once finished a 5k with a 63-63 with a 28 last two hundred.

enduranceguy wrote:

No seriously. I know that it sounds absolutely ridiculous but i just read it on some website a few years ago. That is why I asked somebody to clarify instead of being a tool about it like the person who just responded to my post.

The answer is NO! You are obviously an idiot.