Break Down Paavo Please

ummmm ok those are not lies, well yes ur right my birthday is coming up so TECHNICALLY i'm 25 for two more weeks.

but yes today was day 2 on the 3rd week schedule on the 1st phase.

i did a 6 mile LR yesterday on a trail

and today i ran a timed 2 mile

tomorrow i'm going to run 45 seconds slower on my CT for 4 miles

you're a freak

AdamLocked wrote:

Why is Paavo such a secretive training method that's so difficult to learn how to do? Is there not some article that breaks it down for me online, or do I need to order the one easy payment of $19.99 for the Paavo Training DVD?

The only reason I don't like it is because it's made out to be some secret training plan that you have to go to a clinic or camp or buy a DVD to learn about. Which just makes it seem like a smart way to make money doing training that yields short term results.

You seem to understand the true essence of PAAVO better than most.

If that's what I am it's still better than being a liar. You've actually already started the program, you aren't merely "interested in starting" it. Go run yourself into the ground and stop lying on this board.

k how about you stop being a lil boy and ask questions before you assume like all lil boys your age do.

i STARTED the program on week 3 because I log 40-50 miles all ready per week. So my old track coach said to just start out on the 3rd week to get used to the program. Theres no point in me doing week one and log 12 miles and what not.

idiot.

I'm only doing 30 miles, then next week it goes to 40, then 50 then at 60 i'm going to stop there for a couple weeks and perfect the phase before i move on.

and yes i will run a lot, like i already do because my body can handle it

and yes you are a freak

any other bright ideas you moron?

see people post things on here to get answers and I have absolutely nothing to gain by lying about anything on here

so how 'bout you go back to your lil masturbating playground in your parents basement and let people find out information that can be helpful

toolbag.

mrkooter wrote:tomorrow i'm going to run 45 seconds slower on my CT for 4 miles

Hey I just responded to your e-mail a little bit ago.

The above is one of the many problems I've got with Paavo. My SPPM pb was 20:37/5:09per mile, so my CT's were supposed to 5:54.

SO essentially I was supposed to run 5:09 for 4 miles, run easy at 5:54 the following day and on the next day run 10 miles all out. This is week in, week out. Where is the recovery?

I remember in H.S. breaking 50 miles for the week on Wensday mornings. It's just too much. Especially, when there are better, much more successful programs where you don't need to work as hard to get the same results.

MrKooter: Try to filter out the haters. You'll get a lot of that here.

Everyone else: There is a fine line between what is written in stone and how it works in real life.

This program is above all....for high schoolers. If you aren't a freshman in high school it will lose a lot of the effectiveness.

CTs: These are distance specific. If you've run 5:09 pace for 4 miles would 5:54 for 4 miles really be that difficult? NO. If you've run 60 minutes for 10 miles would 6:45 for 10 miles be difficult? NO.

Also, PPMs do not go on forever. I know of a handful of runners who have ever run PPMs longer than 8 miles. Keep in mind that PPMs are run as off-season/pre-season work so you are not in PR shape and will not run as such. The idea is to build endurance. You go out hard and hang on for dear life. The next time you repeat that stress you improve and are able to hang on more and more.

PPMs should really only last about 4-8 weeks then you transition into slow intervals, then pace intervals. All of this has been laid out in my previous e-mails. Search for them if you want to. Facts are there has been a lot of high school successes using the program.

The clinics and the running camps are secretive because no one ever makes money by offering something for free. The USATF doesn't offer its coaching levels for free now does it?

How did someone first learn about Lydiard? By paying for a book or a lecture. Nothing is free.

Alan

Can you explain to me how you think a program is a good program when you say "This program is above all....for high schoolers. If you aren't a freshman in high school it will lose a lot of the effectiveness." Does it not seem that a good program would be beneficial to everyone high schoolers through professionals. By saying what you have said you have just brought more credit to my belief that this program is basically just about racing you into shape and then burning you out. In high school if you can race someone into shape fast you will have a good team but that is not true for upper levels. So yes if you want to race into shape real fast than this isn't a bad idea but going out and running a tempo everyother day and a workout in between will also get you into shape fast. If you are looking for something that will help you long term. DON'T RUN PAAVO.

Alan,

Thanks, I will do a better job with them haters :)

I'm not a freshman, but I honestly don't understand why it would loose effectiveness. It's not like I'm going to do Paavo forever. Infact, I just plan on using it for a while and see the phase progression. What you just posted is dang near exactly what my old coach was telling me. Build a base (endurance) and improve your times. Once perfection of that phase is met (couple weeks) you move on to different training modules.

My old coach actually thinks this program will benefit me more because I'm a full grown adult who's been running for 13 years and know what my body can handle. There's no "growth spurt" or "puberty" to deal with. lol

Thank you very much though, you just confirmed what my coach was telling me.

Cheers!

You don't break down Paavo, Paavo breaks down you.

I was never injured in 4 years of high school and ran every single day from January of my freshman year through the end of my senior year. It doesn't break you down if you are smart about it.

I say it's a good high school program because the workouts are geared toward 5k/1600m/3200m running. You wouldn't run the same workouts for 8k/10k running that you do in college.

I believe it gets you in the best possible shape you can get into for a high school runner. Most high school runners are undertrained because most high school coaches don't know their arse from a hole in the wall.

Because of the intensity of the program I wouldn't advise it for older runners because teenagers are simply more durable than older runners (peaking testosterone, less accumulation of impact stress, more natural flexibility, etc).

For runners with some years on the legs I would advise the following:

1. Slow down the CT runs. Don't have a predetermined pace. Just run as you feel.

2. Run PPMs 4 days a part (Tuesday/Friday). Don't worry about the timed mile on Saturday, hell we rarely did that as it was.

3. Run hard no more than 3 days per week (two days of slow intervals, one day of pace intervals or one race) instead of the 4 days or more that it can get up to normally (I can remember weeks doing two slow interval days, and two pace interval days and sometimes there would also be a race thrown in there....4 or 5 days of hard workouts/race)

So, instead of moaning and groaning and being an ass that doesn't like to work hard how about you KIDS get out and try it first, then come back and groan.

So for the post-high school 5k runners I would advise:

2 months: PPMs on Tuesday/Friday starting with 2/3 working up to 6/8

1 month: Slow Intervals on Tuesday/Friday starting with 12-16 x 400 moving up to 6-8 x 800. Pace is faster than 5k pace w/3:00-4:00 recovery and double recovery between sets of a mile.

2 months: Slow Intervals on Sunday/Friday as per above (long set of slow intervals serves as your long run). Pace Intervals on Tuesdays. Start with 200s, gradually move up to 400s, 800s, 1200s, 1600s, etc. Total distance is one mile less than what you run for slow intervals (ie: you've done 8x800 for slow intervals so you only do 3 miles max worth of pace intervals). Speed is fast....about 1600-3200m pace depending on what distance you are running in the workout. Rest is standing rest until HR drops under 120. Legs will be HEAVY. That is the point. Training your body to run on heavy legs.

Alan

Runningart2004 wrote:

The clinics and the running camps are secretive because no one ever makes money by offering something for free. The USATF doesn't offer its coaching levels for free now does it?

How did someone first learn about Lydiard? By paying for a book or a lecture. Nothing is free.

Alan

No, but unlike Marshall Sellers, other coaches publish their findings in journals or write about them in books and thus allow other coaches to digest the information in the manner best suited to their coaching style and program. They don't create a cult-like aura about their mysterious secret, implying that you only can attain the knowledge if you attend Marshall Sellers' clinics and camps (which cost a hell of a lot more than Jack Daniels' and Arthur Lydiard's books).

And Marshall Sellers is no Arthur Lydiard.

Very good info Alan. I have sent this workout to my old coach so he can view it and try to find a happy-medium paavo style to fit my age, fitness and motivation. I'm not going to lie, I'm pretty excited to be doing Paavo.

I've seen positive results, they are just few because the program is intended for the ONE ATHLETE to progress the program based on his determination & motivation, while in turn actually seeing results. Once that ONE ATHLETE on the team does it, others are SUPPOSE to follow. However the program isn't for everyone and thats the beauty of people not understanding why they couldn't handle it or the workout load.

Thanks again Alan

mrkooter

Ok first off Alan I did try it and I did it exactly as Mr. Sellars said to. Secondly Tuesday-Friday is 3 days not 4 so learn how to count. Finally, how can you claim this to be a good program when you have to completely change everything around. When you change everything the way you have what you have made the program is extremely Daneilesk. So thank you for proving that Daniels is one of the best training methods and that Paavo is not.

Also to Mr. Kooter I tried to tell you exactly what happened to me and my experience with it being completely unbiased as I could even though it broke me down. I do completely understand why Paavo is not a good training program due to the fact that now 10 years after high school being 25 and having a very strong background in excercise physiology with an emphisis in endurance athletics I understand how the body works. Which by the way is more than I can say about your high school coach or Alan.

Well good luck with that very strong background in exercise physiology and emphasis in endurance athletics.

Either way, Daniels or Paavo, they both obviously work.

Thanks

Runningart2004 wrote:

How did someone first learn about Lydiard? By paying for a book or a lecture. Nothing is free.

Alan

Bullcrap, you just reconfirmed that you have zero credibility.

All's I see with this training is stress stress stress!, there is not a coach of any world beater who has not got a grasp and respect for the concept of stress+rest makes champs. Training that has not got respect for of the body for rest is is not sound...

And Marshall Sellers is no Arthur Lydiard.

I can agree with that. I attended 2 of Arthur's lectures just before he died. Because his ideas are so ubiquitous I don't think I learned many new things. But just being in the presence of such greatness was well worth the many miles I had to drive to attend. Can't say I'd drive too far for a Paavo lecture.

Maine Mt. wrote:

And Marshall Sellers is no Arthur Lydiard.

I can agree with that. I attended 2 of Arthur's lectures just before he died. Because his ideas are so ubiquitous I don't think I learned many new things. But just being in the presence of such greatness was well worth the many miles I had to drive to attend. Can't say I'd drive too far for a Paavo lecture.

I was also at one of Arthur's lectures on his 1999 tour, even had the privilege of being a co-speaker. And I did attend one of the Paavo clinics once out of curiosity. Can't say that I was convinced of the greatness of Paavo (and I've had a fair amount of success as a HS coach)

If Arthur was still alive, I might go all the way to New Zealand to hear him speak again.

If Marshall Sellers was speaking in my living room, I'd stay in the den. However, I know that he means well, and if he inspires others to do good things, good for him.

Just looking at one program that uses Paavo by the book, SLC from Texas, I think it's hard to dismiss the effectiveness of Paavo. Collegiate success is a straw man argument unless you name five programs with a better alumni list than SLC. SLC had two girls at FLN two years ago. Two boys this year. I first looked at Paavo and thought "That's insane!" When I saw the success they had with their program, I had to give it it's respect. Usher, I know you are not as accomplished as the SLC coach and I seriously doubt he would bother to sit in on one of your lectures.