Lydiard anaerobic phase

Runningart2004 wrote:

A better term to replace "anaerobic" would be "glycolytic" or "lactic".

Alan

No it wouldn't Alan. Aerobic energy production is mitochondrial, anaerobic is non-mitochondrial.

Your definition is just another example of bad science.

I don't buy into this "letsrun lydiards are a cult" thing.

A guy asked "what does Lydiard do for anaerobic stuff?"

so some lydiardite was like "he does this"

someone else said "I dont wanna do that"

so HRE said "ok, so don't do it."

How is that a cultist response?

CraigMac4h wrote:

How is that a cultist response?

The cultist response is in the fact that Lydiardites they attribute most existence training with Lydiard method or Lydiard influence when that’s the opposite. That´s illegitimacy. That’s Lydiard that did copy most of his training method from other coaches. Anaerobic training as Lydiardistes they consider and they do it that’s not Lydiard training. That´s a lie. That’s a rough and a quite elementary copy of early training quite correct training methods.

The cult is to try convince us in the belief that some 200s 400s 800s or whatever hard interval workouts that’s Lydiard. Lydiard he was a good man, did top class runners, but he was quite ignorant about the best way to do so. He never had enough training expertise to advise the best way to do the anaerobic training. Neither Lydiardism they don´t. If you want to go deeper in the anaerobic training and you aren’t a top runner therefore you need to take care about your training as a top class runner he doesn’t necessary then you need to search other than Lydiard method.

Lydiard's results speak for themselves. He took kids from his block and made them Olympians. Regardless of the science behind it, he trained them and coached them well.

Hill workouts have been around forever.

Intervals have been around forever.

Steady hard runs have been around forever.

Lots of mileage has been around forever.

It's how Lydiard structured them that is unique.

Alan

The original question is "what are some good examples of workouts Lydiard did in the anaerobic phase"

then some Lydiard experts gave examples. Did they say "oh, well, Lydiard invented 440 yard repeats!"

No. They just gave examples of anaerobic phase workouts that Lydiard used.

I think the whole "Lydiard cultist" backlash is pretty unfounded. I'm not Lydiard fanatic or anything, but it seems like every time there's a thread where someone asks a specific question about Lydiard, people get attacked for being "lydiard cultists" or something.

I remember in one thread, Nobby was talking about a conversation he had with Frank Shorter, and SHORTER told NOBBY that "oh, yeah, Lydiard was a big influence on me." When Nobby recounted the tale, he practically got tarred and feathered for "giving Lydiard the credit for Shorter." Ok, were there differences between Shorter and Lydiard? Sure. But Frank mentioned the similarities to Nobby and Nobby got attacked.

Then this guy asks about Lydiard anaerobic stuff and the question is answered and again, Lydiardites get attacked for answering the question. No one is saying Lydiard invented 400 repeats with 400 jog recovery. But that's a workout Lydiard would use, and that was the question asked.

If someone came here and was like "Hey, guys, what kind of workouts did Seb Coe do for anaerobic capacity?" And some Coe/Martinist (Skuj?) said "oh, he used to like to do 10x400 at mile pace with a 200 jog rest" would it be fair for me to go "Oh, another Coe-cultist claiming that Peter Coe invented 400 repeats. My god, you suck, Coe-cultist."

OP said "something is bothering me with run until you feel tired / taxed" or words to that effect, then HRE, Lydiardite Extraordinaire, who never tolerates anything that questions Lydiard, went with this:

HRE wrote:

If it bothers you don't do it. The question was about what Lydiard did with his anaerobic phase and that's what he did.

Not only is this unhelpful, but it is snarky and defensive and just what the Letsrun Lydiardites always do when someone rightfully challenges all the Lydiard myths out there.

Discuss.

Please opens Lydiard Foudaion site and on the top of the home page you may read

http://www.lydiardfoundation.org/index.html

“The maker of Champions...the Father of Jogging.”

That´s first lie and an ilegitime authorship. Lydiard didn´t invent the jogging neither was the frs to formulate it as actuall we do it. I don´t know if it was Lydiard himself that said that but Lydiardistes they think and they argue that Ldiard did invent the Jogging for the average runner, for the person with wealth care and tha purpose. That´s not true. I can prove by past edited books that even before Lydiard was born german naturalist Doctor Kneipp did formulate it and also the swedish and Nordic gimnastic method from the early 20s they prescribe it,

they did write bookswere they prescribe the jogging and what the english language means by the jogging sport.

In the same Lydiard Foundation site read with atention UNDERSTANDING THE LYDIARD METHOD. If you have some skill amd knowledge about the past running methods in the running history something that most of Lydiardistes they don´t you will understand that most of that were so claim as Lydiard principles are taked from other training methods. Then you keep read and they consider Lydiard as the most successfull traning method in the world. Another lie. I Can prove he doesn´t.

Then you read what they say that Lydiard method is. I guess ther´s no need to go futher. Lydiardistes they claim illegitimily from Lydiard issues he did formulate, invented, created, edit and so, that were patromony of other previous training methods really indeed. All this have a name. Illegitime.

Skuj,

The line "father of jogging... was given or attributed to him, he didn't assume it himself. So then it is not a lie.

IQ100 : Prove away Mate.

From what I understand Lydiardites have never said that his methods were the most successfull training method in the world all they have done is explain what he was trying to do , and hey you better do something about your spelling !!!

What is IIIegitime ??????

Wetcoast, trust me on this: That was not Skuj. LOL.

Wetcoast wrote:

Skuj,

The line "father of jogging... was given or attributed to him, he didn't assume it himself. So then it is not a lie.

D.S. wrote:

OP said "something is bothering me with run until you feel tired / taxed" or words to that effect, then HRE, Lydiardite Extraordinaire, who never tolerates anything that questions Lydiard, went with this:

HRE wrote:

If it bothers you don't do it. The question was about what Lydiard did with his anaerobic phase and that's what he did.

Not only is this unhelpful, but it is snarky and defensive and just what the Letsrun Lydiardites always do when someone rightfully challenges all the Lydiard myths out there.

Discuss.

I'm sorry if it's unhelpful. But the original question was about the sorts of workouts Lydiard had his athletes do when they began anaerobic work. That's what he did. He had guys do fairly normal things like 400s, 200s, 800s. What do you want? Would you like me to make up stuff that he didn't have people do?

Ok, digging deeper here, there was generally a progression from longer reps or high numbers of reps to shorter reps or faster reps. Recoveries for the shorter reps were usually the same distance as the rep.

But when people start asking about what distances or what paces there is no real answer. If you were working with him he'd probably have told you what you should do that day if he was with you. But in the time I worked with him he'd send suggestions about "doing some reps now." I'd do them. He was satisfied. He NEVER said, "Do X number of reps at Y distance and Z pace now.

The specific pace stuff comes in the coordination phase in the form of time trials and when you begin to race. You might "bracket" your distance, i.e. race at longer and shorter distances than the one you're aiming for.

Ok, some of you guys don't like that. You WANT someone to say, "Do X number of reps at Y distance and Z pace now." That's fine. Lydiard wouldn't have cared and I sure as hell don't either. There are lots of coaches, articles, Letsrun posters who will tell you those things. Do them. Good luck with it. Really. But why then, do you feel like you need to somehow attach Arthur's name to it? That isn't how he trained people.

I'm not asking this rhetorically. This comes up all the damn time here. Question: What pace did Lydiard want you to run for 1 km repeats and how many? Answer: Fast enough and many enough to make you tired. Response: It's a snarky (I assume that's not a good thing) answer. It's a cult's answer. Why do you guys care? You don't want to do what Lydiard had people do but somehow want to attach his name to what you want to do. Could someone please explain that to me?

And by the way, cults try to convert people. None of us who knew Arthur and follow his approach have EVER tried to convert anyone. Honestly, if you aren't comfortable with "create a big ozygen debt" do something that you're comfortable with.

HRE wrote:

And by the way, cults try to convert people. None of us who knew Arthur and follow his approach have EVER tried to convert anyone.

CraigMac4h wrote:

I don't buy into this "letsrun lydiards are a cult" thing.

A guy asked "what does Lydiard do for anaerobic stuff?"

so some lydiardite was like "he does this"

someone else said "I dont wanna do that"

so HRE said "ok, so don't do it."

How is that a cultist response?

This is not true. The guy had some questions and some difficulty understanding, not "I don't want to do that". The you Lydiardites get all defensive again.

Discuss.

Jeffd wrote:

Thanks guys...Yes Im aiming to run fast already in may...I just tought that should I trie to use different paces in reps.

Like rotate 1,5k; 3K ; 5k ; and 10K paced intervalls.

Something is bothering me to "just run until you build a big oxygen dept"

Discuss.

Jeffd wrote:

Im following Lydiard style programm, now doing the condition part 100-120 miles/week.

I just wondered what Lydiard means with anaerobic intervalls? Are they VO2max (5x1000m) or true anaerobic intervalls?

Discuss.

Wetcoast wrote:

Skuj,

The line "father of jogging... was given or attributed to him, he didn't assume it himself. So then it is not a lie.

But that´s what i try to say. Lydiard himself he was a good coach really indeed. But he never said the foolish lies that Lydiardistes they say. What Lydiardists they promote that´s Lydiard cult.

IQ100 wrote:

Wetcoast wrote:

Skuj,

The line "father of jogging... was given or attributed to him, he didn't assume it himself. So then it is not a lie.

But that´s what i try to say. Lydiard himself he was a good coach really indeed. But he never said the foolish lies that Lydiardistes they say. What Lydiardists they promote that´s Lydiard cult.

dear D.S. and IQ 100,

i know the "lydiard cultists" very well and they are kinder than me but speaking for myself, you are not welcome to join. go train the way YOU want to train.

james

Jeffd wrote:

Im following Lydiard style programm, now doing the condition part 100-120 miles/week.

I just wondered what Lydiard means with anaerobic intervalls? Are they VO2max (5x1000m) or true anaerobic intervalls?

Jeffd, Getting back to your original question read this post

"http://championseverywhere.blogspot.com/2007/01/arthurs-speed-work.html/"

Getting the correct loads and the timing of the intervals are two variables that a good log can help you with. Some runners need a longer period to get good results, others 3 or 4 sessions over a 2 1/2 week period. It is very important to keep the speed toned down initially (as the above post explains), you can easily undermined a good conditioning phase by going too hard too quickly.

HRE

Just to point out. I speak for myself. I ever respect Lydiard and his memory. The issue is about Lydiardism cult not with Lydiard himself.

But let me ask you. Does ever Lydiard said that his training is “the perfect combination of aerobic and anaerobic training as it´s said in the Lydiard Foundation site ?

If that´s "the perfect combination" it have to be the perfet number of repetitions and the perfect interval recover. If thet´s perfect that´s because that´s te best, nothing is as good as that.

The original question was about the sorts of workouts Lydiard had his athletes do when they began anaerobic work, so if it is the perfect combination it have to be precise, not vague.