Japanese training system in Fukuoka,

is this the loop?

Only 1900m? Looks like they're not training quite as fast as you thought...

No sex, no drugs, no wine, no women

No fun, no sin, no you, no wonder its dark

Everyone around me is a total stranger

Everyone avoids me like a psyched lone-ranger everyone

Thats why Im turning japanese

I think Im turning japanese

I really think so

Turning japanese

I think Im turning japanese

I really think so

Im turning japanese

I think Im turning japanese

I really think so

Turning japanese

I think Im turning japanese

I really think so

Tell us what the sub 2:20 female marathoners did for training.

And I liked the story about Shibui.

How do they make the transition from a pile of slow miles

to hammering 30k?

They DO train fast - just not as often and they DO train slow - often, VERY SLOW - somewhere between a walk and a jog.Go to the Boulder Res during the summer - sometimes they are hammering out a FAST pace, but it might be a series of 5 mile / 8k loops, sometimes well over 20 miles, starting slow - then slowly building with each loop to a very fast pace. I've witnessed a string of Japanese men running in single file at 5:00 to sub 5:00 pace at Potts Field in Boulder for over 15k.

Japan Training wrote:

vladimir is totally correct Japan never train fast, lot, lot kilometers but slow, slow, really slow.

Nobby, if you check back into the thread, I wonder if you could help me out with an off-line discussion I'm having. We're discussing easy running, and the pros and cons of running easy days too fast (say, for example, faster than Daniels' E pace) versus too slow (again, for example, slower than the slow end of his E pace).

Japanese runners are obviously very successful at long distance, out of proportion in comparison with us in the west (north America anyway).

Here's the question.... how slowly do Japanese elite runners typically run on their off days?

Thanks man!

Sorry, not Nobby - just reporting my observations.

What do you mean by off days?

The Japanese who train in Boulder often go somewhere between a fast walk and a slow jog. Many of them do walk - a lot. It is quite common to see the men and women going PAINFULLY slow - it is also common to see them running and/or walking in the morning, at noon and again in the late afternoon - also, usually in full sweats. There have been many times where I have passed < 2:10 guys while I was plodding along at 8:30 pace ... or slower.

CO-Runner wrote:

Sorry, not Nobby - just reporting my observations.

What do you mean by off days?

The Japanese who train in Boulder often go somewhere between a fast walk and a slow jog. Many of them do walk - a lot. It is quite common to see the men and women going PAINFULLY slow - it is also common to see them running and/or walking in the morning, at noon and again in the late afternoon - also, usually in full sweats. There have been many times where I have passed < 2:10 guys while I was plodding along at 8:30 pace ... or slower.

Yes, they do walk--quite a bit. But then again, you'd get a wrong impression if you stop and notice them walking; and you'd probably notice that more often because it may look a bit odd??? But they do run a lot too. When I look back and check training log of Hitachi days; I think this is quite useful because this is basically a schedule for developing young ladies (18 and 23; mainly 19~20 years old); I see walking, oh, perhaps a few times in 2~3 weeks period. Personally I do walk when I feel sluggish or when I noticed my HR is high (this is resting HR); just give myself an excuse to take it easy. I put full sweats--even in the summer--to make sure I get good sweat going from walking. I would swing my arms around or lift me knees up here and there just to "stretch-out". I'd go as long as 2-hours walk like this and works wonder. This is a legit "workout" and you do get good sweat going this way; but NOWHERE near the effort of running, or even easy jogging.

Some elites do go quite slow. Eriko Awai, a 2:26 runner (female) used to laugh and say, "I got passed by an old lady!" She would do 12~15 minute per mile pace sometimes! Of course, everything has time and place for it. That does not mean she only ran slow to her 2:26. There's a time for them to run slow; there's time for them to walk a lot; there's a time for them to run fast and how much to run fast. You really need to look at a one workout in the scheme of where they are in terms of development and full cycle of training program.

And they don't just pick up and start running fast one day after all those slow running and walking either. Some would do those 1k at the end of the run (a la van Aaken???) or do more hills in between (a la Lydiard???). When you look at the entire program, it really makes sense.

Date: Saturday 15 December

Time: 10am

Athlete: So, `Shiro` (14:16/30:08/66:35)

Club: Nishitetsu

Training today: 30km timed run

Weather: 10 centigrade - windy and cool

This was a progression run, with the first 10km being run at around 3:45 per km, down to 3:40 km. Then it got faster and faster, with the last 10km at about 3:25 per km pace.

Total time for 30km: 1:51.26

The athlete in question - So - is preparing for a February marathon, and his coach predicts a time of approx. 2:18 for this athlete.

Observations: So was wearing quite a bit of clothing, compared to many other joggers, but he scaled down as the run progressed.

Pain tolerance is very high in Japanese runners, and they will try to do exactly as the coach wants for that day.

Other observation: So ran counter direction to all the joggers, following the green central line on the loop, and running opposite all the joggers. What is interesting is that none of the joggers give these runners a second glance, despite the speeds they are running at. The joggers are into their own thing and don`t seem impressed by the fast runners doing their timed 20km - 30km runs.

The High school teams were also out training this morning.

The coaches make long speeches before and after the runs. The athletes bow and show a lot of respect for `sensei.`

Ghost in Fukuoka

if any of these things are a suprise to you then you obviously havent been in japan very long.

Ghost, you once again prove that you are f***king clueless.

QUOTE

Jason, there is no call for this kind of language. When Ghost stops posting I'll be pretty damn pissed. An incorrect Ghost is better than no Ghost.

Good day sir.

Quick question.

What kind of times do most Japanese High Schoolers run/how fast are the cream of the crop in events like the 800/1500/5000/etc...

i couldnt tell yu about their top highschool guys times, or even the times of your average high school team. but i can almost guarentee that they are on average MUCH faster than american prep athletes.

the team that i train with on occasion has about 13-16 guys everyday who run atleast 10 miles a day. this is including their jog like warm up of 45 minutes, and the loads of drills that they do. i've never seen these guys race, but i've done a 4x5k workout with them (i was trailing off the back, obviously). me, being not near in the shape that these guys are ran something like 18:40-18:55-18:55-19:10. i believe that at least ten of them ran low 17s for all four repeats.

I have told this story a million times, but the high school team I used to train with with would do a 30k run every weekend at 4 min per K.

Actually I don't think Japanese prep times are not as good as American's. We have no Webb, no Ritz, no Rupp. There was a very promising high school kid a few years ago who ran 3:38 for 1500 while in high school. He was very good in middle school as well. But as he moved on to college, you don't hear about him any more. They have the same problem of young athletes not developing into elite international competitors. What Japanese do particularly well is to bring seemingly mediocore runners (mainly to the corporate teams) and develop them into international level runners. They are most successful by bringing them in right after high school, 18 or 19 years old, and start developing them. This way, they'll have a continuity of coaching instead of 3 years in high school and then 4 years in college under different coaching and lots of pressure to compete well--this is actually exactly the idea Dick Brown had when he started Oregon High Performance Foundation.

I don't have the exact record with me right now but I think it was 1991 or thereabouts when the Japanese high schooler dipped under 14 minutes for 5000 for the first time. There might have been 2 or 3 others who had done it.

Well... Actually I might take it back; we have Kinukawa who represented Japan for 10000m at Osaka this summer and she was a high schooler. We had Kobayashi who was a national 1500m champ in 1500 as a high schooler who, I believe, now is being coached by Koide. Koide is also coaching this young girl of 19 who won Tokyo marathon (not the women's but the mass marathon) this past February in 2:35 and change (her first marathon). I don't think we have speedsters like American; considering the national record for indoor mile (granted, mile is rarely run in Japan) was broken about 3 years ago and it was 4:01! This is the open race; not prep.

I think Americans (and I'm talking about US born white kids) are much faster than Japanese in middle distance range. I remember watching Pacific Youth Championships several years ago. Japanese high school kids dominated in 5000. This is probably due to their discipline in training. I remember the kid who finished second in 1500 (which I thought was very good for Japanese) went on the lead the first leg of inter-high school ekiden 10k. He went on to college and we haven't heard about him since.

A couple of years ago Steve Plasencia asked me if there's any possibility of bringing Japanese high school kids to US college. He saw some very fast times but it turned out, they were all posted by Kenyan kids who enrolled in Japanese high school! I see what we saw years ago in the US college; US kids having to compete against "imported" runners. While I don't personally approve of recent decision of banning foreign runners in the first leg of inter-high school ekiden championships, I'm not quite sure if it's doing any good to development of young Japanese talent...

We have a young very promising runner who recentely posted 27:50 for 10000m as a college sophomore. He was a very good runner in high school (I think he dipped under 14:00 but he wasn't #1 high school runner either). He has been developing very gradually and steadily so I'm curious to see how far he would go. But I'd consider him as an exception. Most of the best Japanese runners are the products of corporate system; not high school-college program. Seko, of course, is another exception.

Okay, before the dinner is ready...

I've got the top 25 times of high schoolers in 2007. Boys 800: #1 is 1:51, 25th is 1:54. 1500: 3:48 by Kenyans, the second is Japanese kid with 3:51. 25th is 3:55. In 5000, we have 5 Kenyans in top 10; first Japanese is #5 with 14:00. For Girls; there are 2 Kenyan girls in 1 & 2 with 4:18 and 4:19 in 1500; first Japanese is 4:20. Kinukawa is way ahead among Japanese girls; she ran 9:04 for 3000 behind 2 Kenyans, 15:27 for 5000 behind 1 Kenyan, 31:35 for 10. The Japanese girl behind Kinukawa in 5 is 15:57. Interestingly, high schooler (girl) placed 9th in 800 with 2:07 and 10th in 15 with 4:20. Traditinally, Japanese high school girls actually do very well in open races in middle distance and distance events.

Once again, these times are NOT all time records, just 2007.

Nobby,

whatever happened to watanabe? he ran for waseda in the mid 90's. he and steven mayaka used to go at it pretty seriously whenever they raced...

Watanabe kept having injuries and retired way too prematurely. He now coaches at Waseda University.

Date: Sunday 16th December, 2007

Weather: cool and sunny, about 8-12 centigrade

Races: Different races from 2k to 6k, mostly for the young club runners

6k race: Whole bunch of guys (ages 16-20) come in, between 18:00 (winner) to 18:30-19:00. High quality

4k boy races (age group, 12-13): Winner runs 12:30, and a whole bunch of runners in the 12-13 age group are right behind, with a whole bunch under 13 minutes.

All sports in Japan use distance running as a base. All the baseball teams in Fukuoka including the semi pro and pro teams train for endurance several times a week logging 2km repeats, which seems strange, considering baseball requires more explosive ability than endurance.

Other observation: Many of the other athletes who were not racing today were running 30km timed sessions on the 2km Ohori loop. The timed 30km session seems to be typical in Japan. In Britain, for example, marathon runners, do not usually run timed sessions for their long run, but just run for time. Japanese like to calibrate everything. The coaches log books, when you look at them, are replete with stats and times of all their athletes. Everything is noted, carefully written and comments. Detailed oriented culture.

Japan is not so expensive - you can find decent little diners where you spend only between 380 yen (yashinoya chain) to 650 yen for a small set meal, of soup, rice and noodles and vegetables. The expense comes for foreigners who want to rent, because Japanese landlords usually ask for 6 months to 1 year rent upfront as well as key money and a gift of 2-3 months rent.

Every Sunday there are marathons or Ekidens on national t.v. stations, with the whole events shown from start to finish! This is probably unique. Today was a high class Ekiden female race shown on t.v. Extensive interviews with the female stars after the race.

Go to a magazine store, and there at least 4-5 national magazines devoted to running and especially distance running. For readers fluent in Kanji, it would be very interesting to translate these articles into English.

Ghost in Fukuoka (December 2007)