Re: AC/LT Training Zones

I haven't addressed this yet with jtupper, but I believe that his definition of lactate threshold is a pace where lactate is produced in amounts such as taht they accumulate.

Lactate threshold, as defined by the program that this chart references, is pace where lactate is produced in copious amounts but has not reached the point where it accumulates.

At these LT paces, middle distance runners should be able to run at moderately hard efforts for atleast 50 min.

Here is what jtupper has had to say on the issue in previous posts:

"I have tried to sort of standardize things by referring to a steady "threshold" run as a tempo run. Threshold being the intensity of effort associated with a steady-state accumulaton of blood lactate (which could be anything from around 2.6 to 7.2 mmole of lactate -- usually a mean among a group of runners, of about 4 mmole). Interestingly this is more accurately identified by %Vo2max than by a particular blood lactate value (for instance those who have a high lactate value when at threshold -- say 7 mmole -- are still pretty close to the 86-88% Vo2max value that another runner is at 3mmole). So, it is safer to use %max to identify threshold in most cases. HR is closer to 90-92% of HR max when at threshold. This is a case where HR is a useful tool because wind, terrain, running conditions can affect actual pace that is associated with threshold (although pace is the desirable way to go, and on level ground if possible). Aside from the physiological benefit of training at threshold pace (the body learns to clear lactate better when stressed to some degree, and a greater intensity becomes associated with threshold), there are psychological advantages to performing continuous prolonged runs at a pretty solid pace (referred to as "tempo" runs by many even if not at threshold intensity). That's OK. Just realize that "tempo" means different things to different runners. I coined the phrase "vVO2max" and now people all over the place define it a variety of ways, which is a shame because if this hapens to all terminology then we can get very confused. Just think of the many definitions of "interval training" that you can come up with. I have prepared a new table that addresses the issue of "tempo" runs of various durations -- how much to vary the original "threshold" pace, depending on how long a tempo run you feel is good for you. Could help, or could just result in more missunderstanding. A pretty good estimate of threshold pace is about 24 seconds per mile slower than current 5k race pace. It's also a bit faster than marathon race pace, depending on how fast a marathoner you are. Some people think threshold pace is too slow and especially when doing cruise intervals. I usually advise these runners to run a faster race to prove their threshold pace should be faster than they think."

AND

"My feeling is a true threshold is an intensity of effort that will produce a "steady state" of blood lactate accumulation (be it 3.0 or 7.5 mmole -- which is about the range many studies have shown the deflection to occur). A typical lactate profile involves a fairly short time at a progressively faster series of intensities, and look for a deflection, which can be quite subjective. Some people look for 2 different thresholds -- 2.0 mmole and 4.0 mmole. But once you have what you consider to be a deflection then you go back and try a steady 20minute effort at that supposed threshold. One of 3 things can happen -- during this 20min run periodic blood samples will show (1) a gradual increase in lactate accumulation, (2) a steady drop in blood-lactate accumulation , or (3) a relative steady state of blood-lactate accumulation. #3 seems more like a true threshold to me -- a point where clearance keeps up with production. Because of the different ways of testing and interpreting a deflection, etc. I think Luv2run has it best by using 15k race pace (for good runners at least). However, this is not too good for slower runners who take an hour to race 10K, because the pace at which you can race for about 1 hour is a better way of explaining it. Some swim coaches use a T-50 test which is the speed you can hold for an all-out 50min swim. Others use a T-30 test, with a 30-min effort. In well-trainined runners I get 86 to 88% of VO2max over and over again with a range of about 82-91% (which is a whole lot less variation than is what you can see in lactate values associated with a deflection (2.6 to 7.6)) I still like using performances to determine training intensities, because performance is what it is all about, and I am pretty convinced that two runners who both race 13:20 for 5k are pretty equal, even though one may have a threshold associated with 4 mmole and the other 6.5mmole blood lactate. Performance takes into account psychological factors as well as physiological -- so base training on performance."

There are two ways of improving your threshold. a) train to produce less lactate at the same pace, and b) train to better clear the lactate you are producing.

I have always felt that jtupper's method only improves b), while trackhead's numbers are very close to the paces I always use to improve a).

I have always felt there is more improvement to be made by getting better at a), than b). Of course you eventually need the right mix of both, or you could just race 10k-15k regularly to get the benefits of b.

One of the things I am interested in is using both jtupper's 20 min. lacte threshold (where lactate accumulates) @ approx. 90-92% MHR, in conjunction with these lactate threshold paces (where lactate is produced, but is just enough that it can still be cleared) @ approx. 85-87% MHR.

Use the 50+min run one week, the 20min run another week.

Jtupper, if you're out there, I'd love to get your take on all of this.

And on a side note, I think it's interesting that Tergat's marathon was exactly 4:45/mi, exactly where his 5k/10k times would line up with LT/marathon pace. This suggests that Gebrselassie is well within himself to produce a similar performance over the same (or similar) course.

Alan how's the running going?

MLSS is what we are concerned about right? I started my masters thesis's based on the idea that MLSS was equal to hour race pace.

Where is the evidence or scientific weight that support that..hmm?

I have to, after thinking more that trackhead is right in his chart.

Good point about Tergat, but note that women will tend to run faster marathon paces than their 5k times in your table suggest.

True, but this chart (on the previous page) is geared towards level 2 runners (collegiates/club-runners).At Level 3 (world class):

This chart of "super-efficient" aerobic monsters (as Paul and Paula would qualify as) suggests that they have the aerobic compenent to run sub-2:05/sub-2:16, respectively, but lack the basic speed component to run 3:27/3:47. And in this case, Paula doesn't have the speed component to run the equivalent 10k (atleast not yet... she would need to be under 55 at the least I would think.)

Aah! this is better. I must've missed the bit that discussed level 2 and level 3... Do these charts come from a book? Or a website? Or are these just times that have evolved / become apparent through experience...

What if my 1500m best is GOING to be 3:34?

before i'm off to bed...

the basic level 2 chart is more or less found as the Hungarian Tables in RWTB.

The Run With the Best software allows for variations based upon the athlete's background. For example, an American high school sophomore who runs 4:20 for 1500m SHOULD have very different AC/LT training paces than a 4:20 1500m/sub-2:30 marathoner. That's where the tiers come in.

Level 1 is your beginning level runner

Level 2 is most everyone else -- collegiates, club guys...

Level 3 is the elite world class, who have many many miles behind them and have (almost) maxed out their stamina and aerobic ability.

It's been extremely accurate.

That chart you posted was confusing. I looked at my 5k race pace and the tempo run pace you posted is 20 seconds slower than what it should be.

Is this software available anywhere? Do you have to buy the book and order it thru the book?

Actually jzstiner I was concerned about the use of terminology which is always problematic in the Ex. Phys. world. I am saying that "threshold" corresponds with hour race pace, but trackhead's chart shows "treshold" at what seems to be marathon race pace. MLSS on the other hand I have always read to be about 10k pace. What happens at this pace is that lactate increases to a high level but then remains steady.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0822.htm

Then we have OBLA, Onset of Blood Lactate, which is a predetermined level of lactate (usually 4.0 mM) that removes the subjectivity of finding the threshold on a graph. We have Anerobic Threshold which is an old and misleading term, Lactate Threshold which can be very subjective, and MLSS which can be confused with all of the above.

I'm not saying trackhead's chart is right or wrong. Training at marathon pace for an hour is a great idea, but confusion sets in when someone calls that "threshold" because we all have this idea of what "threshold" means and marathon pace it is not.

Alan

Runningart2004

As Benson uses it, it's not just an hour of specific intensity. He starts out at smaller lengths of time and builds, depending on your ability level and volume.

GW

You can get the CD and the book for like $80.00 from TF News Publishers. You can get the book seperately, but, I think you have to buy the book to get the CD.

There is some good discussion here, but different terminology is getting in the way. It seems that the concern is how to run a tempo effort, or even what is a tempo effort and how long should it be. The goal is to raise the ability to operate at a given pace with a reduced amount of lactate accumulation. This will decrease lactate build up at every given pace from Marathon to 800m pace. As we head into winter it is an ideal time to work on this type of development because the amount of racing is less (excluding the college XC runners). Thus a possible idea for building a base and improve your bodies ability to remove lactate from your blood at its rate of production is:

Monday ? AM: 0 ? 30min easy 80% of MP, PM ? 40 ? 60min at 80% MP

Tuesday ? AM: 0 ? 30 min 80% MP, PM ? 30min at MP build to 50min over 8 weeks and 80min over 16 weeks

Wednesday ? same as Monday

Thursday ? Cut down start at 90 ? 95% of MP and finish at 110% of MP over 30 min, build to 60 min over 8 weeks

Friday ? See Monday

Saturday ? Speed Drills and strides

Sunday ? long run at 80 ? 90% of MP

The Thursday run will start of relaxed and finish around 10K pace so your blood lactate will increase throughout the run. This will stimulate the body adapt to the stress increasing your LT. The Tuesday run will have all the benifets that have already been described. Also like has been mentioned the exact pace is not critical you must learn to feel your body. You should know the point where lactate begins to accumulate. If you are running at X:30 pace and feel like you can go forever but drop it to X:20 pace and feel like you can not continue much longer you are very close.

I think more importantly too much mental masterbation is going on thinking about this pace and that pace and this terminology and that terminology. If people thought less they would run better. It's simply a matter of practical knowledge backed up by scientific knowledge...not the other way around. Have in your mind that you want to do x, then do x to the best of your ability without going over the edge. This applies to all manner of workouts. Lets say you want to run an hour hard, well you'll likely be running slightly faster than normal pace or around marathon pace. Lets say you want to finish a 60-90 minute run with 30 minutes at a hard effort, well you'll likely be running around marathon pace and if feeling like really hitting it going down to half-marathon pace. What if you really want to hit it hard for 15-20 minutes? What pace do you think you'll do this?...half-marathon pace or thereabouts. What if you want to run 6-10 mile repeats with very short rest, say no more than 60 seconds? Guess what pace you will probably run these?...half-marathon pace. What if you want to run repeat 5ks with short rest of less than 5 minutes. Again, guess what pace you will likely run these?...around marathon pace.

It all boils down to "What are you training for?". What is the needs analysis of your race? If you're training for a marathon you're going to run a lot of workouts around marathon pace to half-marathon pace, like the workouts above. If you are aiming for a 10k to half-marathon then you're likely going to spend a lot of time at that pace with more of the half-marathon pace workouts and long intervals. Keep it simple. When not on a track doing intervals think in terms of 3 paces/efforts: easy, slightly faster, even more faster. This will likely correspond to easy pace, marathon effort/pace, half-marathon effort/pace. This way, regardless of terrian or whether you'll have a general idea of how hard you are working. Then once you get onto the track you can think in terms of specifics: hitting 10k pace, 5k pace, 3k pace.... Instead of training to improve various characteristics (LT, VO2max, etc), train to improve race performance by training specifically at paces around that race speed.

Many hundreds of pages have been spent on the specific characteristics when it only takes one page to detail how to train effectively.

Alan

yeah thanks for hte table

Alan,

Excellent post! Your idea of using three values for distance runs (away from the track) is something I relate to. I mentally use the following which are similar to your terms: 60%, 70%, and 80% of max effort (sometimes I use 1/4th, 1/2, or 3/4th effort, but it is just the same). About your interval ideas, I think you are right on target. If people race at least once per month, they can use race paces for their quality workouts; the old fashion way. A 10k runner can do some mile reps at 10k pace or 1000s at 5k pace or 600-800s at 3k pace, for example. Why, as you point out, does it have to be any more complicated than that. I know a lot about exercise physiology, but really, it means only that I can describe what really good runners have been doing consistently for decades.

Trackhead, did you ever ackknowledge that your charts were wrong for LT pace???

And lets not use terminology as the excuse. Maybe incorrect understanding of terminology is an issue, but... ( I mean , if you want, you can call "LT pace" the pace one runs an ultra-marathon at. It would be wrong, but you could say it)

LT / AT / LASS.......

for MOST people these terms mean: the point in time when your blood lactate starts to increase quicker than it is cleared, the point where the fairly steady slope upwards on the chart listing this accumulation of lactate begins. It is often concurrent with VT. Now you can argue the threshhold occurs right before the lactate starts to accumualte, or just after, or right at that exact point..... but lets not get into semantics and minor differences. There will always be a RANGE of several seconds for this thresshold, but the important thing is for people to have the basic understanding of this pace.

JTUPPER WROTE:

"A pretty good estimate of threshold pace is about 24 seconds per mile slower than current 5k race pace." Others use (Tinman?) 5k pace / .93. Others say the pace around 10mile-1/2 marathon pace.

Tergat is a PERFECT example. His 5k pr is 4:07 per mile. His 1/2 marathon is 4:30 pace. That’s 23 seconds per mile difference. Now some might say is threshhold is just quicker than the 1/2 marathon pace. Use the .93 formula and you would get 4:26 pace. This all fits together with the previous definitions. So Tergat’s threshhold is between 4:26-4:30 pace.

His marathon WR is 4:45 pace. THAT IS NOT HIS AT/ LT / LASS pace. But based on your chart, Tergat’s LT pace would be SLOWER than his marathon pace. Just not true.

People are confused enough about this. As others mentioned on the thread, the pace YOU listed at "LT pace" is really around "marathon pace." And again, that is not by any standard scientific or coaching definition "LT pace." Calling it " this LT pace" is just playing with words and causing more confusion than necessary.

Maybe you retracted this later on, but I never saw that.