Training in Flats - Give Your Testimonies

please dont squeeze the garmin wrote:

- which runs: I'm gonna guess some amount of bad press flats receive is because many runners wear 'em only for races and workouts then get injured. Duh. Wear the least protective shoe only for the most stressful, highest impact runs? Maybe not the best idea! I suggest do the exact opposite - start using the flats on short easy/recovery runs. At slow speeds the impact's a lot less, the strain on your achilles and everywhere else... the logical progression from this standpoint is to get your feet and body used to running in flats in this low-stress setting before wearing them in races and workouts.

Well said.

What you wear the 23 hours when you're *not* running can make a huge difference. My calves bitch if I spend much time in shoes with significant heels.

This is spot on. Like what I said in my previous post, if your plantar or achilles is sore, it may be because of your casual shoes. It's too much of a contrast for the body if you're going from inflexible, 1+ inch heel casual shoes to running in light, flexible shoes for 60+ minutes.

We seem to think largely alike - whether that means I stole your ideas or we each stole or developed 'em from similar sources and experience. At any rate, that's reassuring because you, unlike me, seem to have some idea what the hell you're talking about!

But so far, I gotta wear more shoe than you do. I'd go more minimal too if I could handle it. I do try from time to time and get the same answer. Maybe some day I'll live closer to trails - with minimal exposure to pavement I could wear just about anything.

Very interesting thread. I am training for a marathon and I've been doing short runs in my Nike Free 5.0's, long runs in my Brooks Adrenalines. I feel so much better in my Frees, while I've been experiencing IT band problems in my right hip when I do long runs in my Adrenalines. Could it be the shoes, or is it the high mileage that give me problems? Could you do your training and racing in Frees? Does anyone run marathons in Frees?

The Adrenalines feel like they push my feet to the outside when they strike, while the Frees feel natural...however everyone keeps telling me that I'll need much more support for a marathon (my first) than the Frees could provide.

Thanks for any help.

1. a friend of mine is complaining about the most recent Brooks Adrenaline's. she said they weren't as good as the previous version, caveat emptor.

2. all the ONITSUKA Ultimate 81's I see on line come in ghastly colors, so Jaguar what other shoes were you wearing in your initial transition? I don't have the guts to wear those models. yuck.

The Ultimate 81s came in fairly normal colors when they came back onto the market. I had a couple pairs of dark blue ones with yellow stripes and some light blue ones with silver stripes.

But that was before the retr thing really caught on as "fashion." Once that started the coloring thing seems to have kicked in.

RUNNING IN FLATS IS NOT FOR THOSE WITH WEAK ANKLES, FLAT FEET, PRONATION PROBLEMS, ETC. IT WILL MAKE THINGS WORSE AND YOU WONT BE ABLE TO RUN AGAIN. BELIEVE ME. MY LIFE AS I KNEW IT IS OVER AND I BASICALLY CANT DEAL WITH IT.

IF YOU FEEL THAT YOU WERE BUILT TO RUN, HAVE STRONG FEET AND ANKLES, STRONG GLUTES, NO KNEECAP TRACKING PROBLEMS, ETC. THAN BY ALL MEANS TRY THEM OUT.

TRANSITION WILL TAKE LONGER THAN YOU EXPECT. BE CAREFUL. APPRECIATE YOUR RUNNING. RECOGNIZE THAT YOU SHOULD SEEK LONG TERM IMPROVEMENT (UNLESS YOUR NAME IS GALEN RUPP THAT RAN WELL UNDER 30 MIN IN HIGH SCHOOL - OTHERWISE YOU ARE SHIT AND NEED TO QUIT AND FOCUS YOUR ATTENTION ON REMAINING INJURY FREE) NO SHORT TERM GAINS EXISTS. MAX. MILEAGE INCREASE PER HEALTY SEASON LIKE 5% TOPS. MEANING FROM 30MI TO 100 MI WILL TAKE YOU AT LEAST 5+ YEARS.

THERE IS NO MIRACLE CURE. F*** THERE IS MORE TO LIFE THAN RUNNING FAST. GET OUT THERE. BE HAPPY TO RUN 36 MIN, HECK 40 MIN FOR 10K. WHO GIVES A CRAP IF YOU ARE A MEDIOCRE 31 MIN RUNNER. RUN A BIT, STAY IN SHAPE,ETC.

PS I AM BASICALLY PSYCHOTIC RIGHT NOW BECAUSE MY KNEE IS HURTING, KNEE CAP IS ROTATED/TILTED, CANT RUN, HAVE NO MONEY FOR PHYSIO, ETC. HAHAHAHAHAH

SERIOUSLY ITS LIKE THOSE OLD GUYS WITH WAR STORIES, EXCEPT IM TRYING TO WARN THE YOUNG ONES WITH MY RUNNING RULES

I have the flattest feet I have ever seen. When I was a kid I was constantly spraining my ankles. I'm also heavier than most runners.

Shoes are not the answer to all injury problems. But they are the answer to some. It's nice of you to warn young runners with your running rules. Some of us who have other running rules will continue doing the same when asked.

Terribly sorry to hear of your condition.

May I suggest lower-case letters?

HRE (and others):

Do you know any elite runners wearing flats most of the time?

I am intrigued by the idea...

I recall a 'run with the zebras' photo presentation showing a group of elite Kenyans training on some tough hill run across the water. Great photos.

Not a one of them, however, was/were wearing racing flats that I could see; it was all trainers. Paul Tergat was wearing what appeared to be pretty brand new NIKE Pegasus and a NIKE training outfit: tech shirt and short (mid thigh) tights.

Just thought I'd toss that out there.

Currently no, other than the Japanese, which in a way is like Linclon's widow saying "other than that it was a great play."

In the past, of course, we all wore what would now be called "flats." One of my current favorites is the Onitsuka Moscow which came back on the market a while back as the "Moscow Limber Up." I've seen several picutres of Lasse Viren training in that shoe I've seen photos of Jack Foster in the Ultimate 81. Jack always ran in "flats." So did Anne Audain and Gordon Pirie.

Elites now would be the least likely group to train in flats as most of them have contracts with shoe companies who would not want "their" runners in flats.

psycho, the idea is that if you suffer from any of the problems you mentioned starting with exercise to strengthen ankles, for example, would be a good idea.

Your resasoning seems to give no chance long-term improvement which what might be called in friendly and casual terms "jaguar1 protocol" could indeed promote.

Those capitals are really FEAR inducing. Come on. You don't need to do that. Plus your advocacy for long term patience and lightheartedness is contradictory with the emphasis of your admonitions.

Lighten up. The rotation issue is the key issue that needs some sort of experimentation. Also this is not about running fast. This is about feeling right when you run. This may well coincide with speed, but i think posters like jaguar1 are mostly concerned about being injury free.... and as a result have dramatically improved...

Give up the uppercase.

greg89 wrote: I feel so much better in my Frees, while I've been experiencing IT band problems in my right hip when I do long runs in my Adrenalines. Could it be the shoes, or is it the high mileage that give me problems? Could you do your training and racing in Frees? Does anyone run marathons in Frees?

Could be the shoes, could be the mileage, could be the mileage in the shoes, could be a combination of things with a multitude of possible solutions, e.g. stretching more or better, strengthening, shoes, massage, rolling the quads and ITB...

I've had ITB troubles a few times. Those times I happened to be wearing the most supportive stability shoes; I think this was no coincidence, and I haven't been bothered since swearing off even lightweight trainers. I also find stretching often and rolling occasionally both help.

Why don't you try some longer runs in the Free? You can always work up via a few intermediate distances, e.g. try 8 miles, 12, then 16. If they seem good at that point, also try a longer, harder run like a long tempo/MP run. For me the combination of pace & time is more demanding than either on its own. If they pass that test I'd say you've found your marathon shoe.

I haven't run a marathon in the Free but wouldn't hesitate to on account of "no support" or any such. Why resort to theory when it's so easy to test the practice?

And maybe those Adrenalines are too much for you - wonder if you'd be better off in something more neutral and/or minimal. Feeling very unnatural isn't, in my book, a virtue in running shoes.

I've had PF, groin, hamstring issues and my experience has been that the lower the heel on my shoes the better I feel. Went from Brooks ST2 to T4 to Katana Racer and now train exclusively in these. We weren't made to run in high heels.

Switching to flats and ditching my third pair of orthotics this summer was the only thing that has ended my chronic tibial stress reaction/fracture/shin splints, but now I think I might have a metatarsal stress fracture. I'll find out this week. If I ever do get back to running, I will still plan to run in the flats though because I'll take any injury over the shin thing that was impossible to heal with orthotics and normal trainers. I will probably try to do what jaguar1 did, starting with 10 mpw the first month, 20 the next, etc. I thought I was starting conservatively enough starting with 20-30 mpw and adding each week, but I wasn't alternating the flats with regular shoes, I just went cold turkey to flats. So yes, I have gotten injured by training in flats, but in the long run I think they prevent injuries more than causing them. You just have to be careful.

greg89 wrote:

I feel so much better in my Frees, while I've been experiencing IT band problems in my right hip when I do long runs in my Adrenalines. Could it be the shoes, or is it the high mileage that give me problems? Could you do your training and racing in Frees? Does anyone run marathons in Frees?

IT Band problems were actually the 'last straw' that made me switch to flats. I had shin pain for years (~in Nike Pegasus w/ orthotics), went to a firmer shoe (~Mizuno Wave Riders), and BOOM, IT Band problems a month later. If only I had read the below quote sooner.

From Lore of Running by Tim Noakes (p. 507-508):

"Hard shoes are those designed to limit ankle pronation, which are therefore normally prescribed for the treatment of runner's knee and shinsplints. Indeed, it is not uncommon for an athlete treated too enthusiastically for either runner's knee or shinsplints to return some weeks or months later with the initial injury cured but with an iliotibial band friction syndrome that has been caused by shoes and orthotics that restricted ankle pronation too effectively."

greg89 wrote:

I feel so much better in my Frees, while I've been experiencing IT band problems in my right hip when I do long runs in my Adrenalines. Could it be the shoes, or is it the high mileage that give me problems? Could you do your training and racing in Frees? Does anyone run marathons in Frees?

Meant to reply in post above...

Are the Adrenaline's racing flats (sorry, I don't know much about Brooks)? Is this what you were planning to race in??

You should do your long runs in what you're planning to race in. By no means should you struggle through 20+ miles with a bum IT band just because you're told you need 'more support'. Try the Frees on your next long run.... see if you make it through with no problems. If something acts up, maybe you need to give it more time to adapt (if you have time before your marathon) or simply find a different shoe (maybe a lightweight trainer?). Race in what you're most comfortable in and can handle running 26.2 miles.

Like HRE, I also had very flat feet and overpronated to a significant extent (which contributed to stress fractures in my left foot). This is why orthotics were recommended in the first place. Cured one set of problems.... created a whole other set of problems/pain/frustration.

Who says weak feet can't become strong? That's why I switched to flats/barefoot running-- to work on my weaknesses (my feet!). Certainly has helped, as I've developed developed an arch and no longer overpronate.

From Lore of Running, 3rd edition (pg. 497):

"The softness of the midsole has no marked effect on landing forces during running (T.E. Clarke et al,1983b; Frederick,1986; Nigg et al., 1987). It seems that runners alter their gaits and muscle activation patterns (Komi et al., 1987) when running in harder shoes or when running barefoot. Thus, the degree of pronation is reduced when one runs barefoot (Frederick, 1986; L.S. Smith et al., 1986), a reduction due to changes in running patterns...."

I don't know how or when you developed kneecap tracking problems, but the research, at least for barefoot running, suggests it lessens the stress on your knees. Maybe it was caused by an acute injury, and you're incorrectly contributing it to your shoes? Too much heel on the shoes? Maybe if you elaborated we could figure it out.

2 thoughts wrote:

2. all the ONITSUKA Ultimate 81's I see on line come in ghastly colors, so Jaguar what other shoes were you wearing in your initial transition? I don't have the guts to wear those models. yuck.

I didn't train in any other shoes-- spent the first 6-7 months in the Ultimate 81's. I think they're a bit too stiff now compared to the Puma's, but they felt great at the time and I still wear them as a casual shoe.

Agh, I see what you mean by the current colors. At the time, I had red/gold, yellow/silver, and light blue/red. What about this one?

You should also look into the Mexico 66's (although a little pricier/leather). Or the Runsparks or Corsairs? There was someone raving about the Mexico's a few year ago. I wish they came in nylon. Check out the following links: