I agree with you but trying to run 16 at MP the first time out and experiencing "the wall" is good experience. And if he doesn't bonk then all the more power to him. And IMO it never hurts to try this far out from the goal race.
I agree with you but trying to run 16 at MP the first time out and experiencing "the wall" is good experience. And if he doesn't bonk then all the more power to him. And IMO it never hurts to try this far out from the goal race.
I understand. I ran 10 last weekend, and felt a little pain in my calf. It's OK now, but it made me realize how important staying healthy is. On the bike, you can ride through some injuries, but it seems much harder to do that running.
Thanks for all the help. I'm facinated by the marathon. It's the great unknown to me. I don't know if I can do a 3:20, 3:30 or 4:30, but it's fun (kind of) trying.
Run,roughly the same pace for half Marathon.
My best 3:22.@49yrs
i went from a smoking, totally out of shape slug who had never ran at all and ran 3:16 after 10 months on a hot ass day, so oh yeah, you can do it.
The marathon is a cruel bitch. I've seen her break many a men and was broken on my first attempt. I didn't respect her and she taught me a lesson I'll never forget. Train hard, train smart but respect her and don't go out over your head.
Some of us excel at Marathon distance - most don't.
It takes time and experience to reach your potential.
4:08
3:42
3:22 were my first 3.
My training did not change much over that 10 month time span.
While your cycling will enhance your running,there is nothing like the real thing.
Lots of miles and staying consistent and uninjured are the keys.
You will learn a lot about how your body "ticks".
I suggest:
Get a good training book.
"Marathon"(The ultimate training guide) by Hal Higdon is a great one for first timers.
It's also important to not get to pysched out by the distance. I think a 3:20 is completely doable. The key is long runs at marathon pace + 20 secs. It sounds tough but if you can do that, you can run the pace.
I've run 2 marathons with mid-30 miles per week (4 days a week). The first was 3:32, the second was 3:14
I followed the furman FIRST plan for the second.
2 1/2 years ago I was running about 10 miles/week, no racing and decided to race a 5k. I picked up Daniels' Running Formula 2nd edition for a training guide.
I got up to 35 mpw but most weeks were 20-25 mpw and I ran 22:25.
The next 3 months were 25-35 mpw with 5k and 8k races mixed in and one 15k at the end in 1:09xx. So after 8 months or so I ran 7:25 pace for 15k.
I spent the next 3 months working up to 40-45 mpw and then decided to try a marathon in 6 months.
I turned to Daniels' book because I had to start somewhere and the 5k training helped me progress pretty quickly. I chose his "plan A" and picked 70 mpw as peak mileage. I followed it to the letter as best I could, but had one week down with the Flu.
I used a Vdot value calculated from my average best two 5k times which yielded training paces based on a 3:15 ish marathon (7:25 pace). I figured this to be a bit aggressive but decided I'd use it for training and go out conservative early and see what I felt like.
I did a full 24 weeks (minus 3-4 days of the Flu), struggled with a few injuries, logging 1200 miles in the process with no races.
Here is the result of that approach:
Lap / Time / Lap Time
1. 0:08:19.0 / 0:08:19.0
2. 0:15:56.0 / 0:07:37.0
3. 0:23:29.0 / 0:07:33.0
4. 0:31:04.8 / 0:07:35.8
5. 0:38:38.2 / 0:07:33.4
6. 0:46:13.2 / 0:07:35.0
7. 0:53:46.3 / 0:07:33.1
8. 1:01:16.8 / 0:07:30.5
9. 1:08:50.6 / 0:07:33.8
10. 1:16:26.4 / 0:07:35.8
11. 1:24:04.0 / 0:07:37.6
12. 1:31:36.8 / 0:07:32.8
13. 1:39:15.0 / 0:07:38.2
14. 1:46:44.4 / 0:07:29.4
15. 1:54:16.4 / 0:07:32.0
16. 2:01:48.0 / 0:07:31.6
17. 2:09:23.0 / 0:07:35.0
18. 2:17:04.6 / 0:07:41.6
19. 2:24:43.8 / 0:07:39.2
20. 2:32:22.4 / 0:07:38.6
21. 2:40:02.0 / 0:07:39.6
22. 2:47:53.0 / 0:07:51.0
23. 2:55:39.0 / 0:07:46.0
24. 3:03:32.4 / 0:07:53.4
25. 3:11:30.4 / 0:07:58.0
26. 3:19:32.0 / 0:08:01.6
27. 3:21:11.3 / 0:01:39.3
Since than I have done two more marathons (one each six months) following a similar approach and ran 3:16 and 3:15 in windy/chilly conditions. The weather in my first was almost perfect, just a tad warm at the end.
Two things I felt was key in Daniels' training were the "T" pace running and the "MP" long runs. There are 4 MP runs. Two 16 milers with 12 @ MP and two 19 milers with 16 @ MP. These are difficult runs to be approached somewhat like the race itself (clothes, shoes, food) and are not done every week.
I was 45 at the start of this long-winded tale.
Hope it helps and good luck.
An update, for the few of you who might care:
I'm up to 52 miles per week. Last weekend I ran 22 at an 8:10 pace (30 seconds slower than projected marathon pace) and i felt good at the end of the run. I've done two runs of over 20, and I've done two marathon pace runs of 11 and 13.
I'm also doing one tempo run per week, usually in the 6:50 per mile range, unless it's a long tempo run of an hour or so, in which case I'll run at a 7:15 or so pace.
I've got two more 20+ mile runs, and two more marathon pace runs of 15 and 17 miles, then the taper.
I've been working on eating and drinking during the run quite a bit. I'm down to just one bike ride a week...nothing too long.
Just wondering if it sounds like I'm on pace to reach my goal. The marathon is 9 weeks away. I felt like I could have run a 3:30-35 marathon this past weekend, but I still don't know if a 3:20 is possible.
YOu need to close out a long run at goal pace (or faster) and still "feel strong".
So you need to close out with the last 4 or 5 miles at 7:35, and then a 1 or 2 mile cool down.
BTW I think you are close. Bump up the mileage to 60 the next couple of weeks too. But closing out that long run strong is key.
3:20 marathon beginner,
I was running about 40 mpw with a lot of 400 and 800 meter reps on the track for racing 5k to 5 miles when I decided to run my first marathon. I was running 5K's in the mid-seventeens and ran that marathon about 3:30.
The speed before that first one indicated around 2:50 but 6 weeks or so of higher mileage was not enough. The missing pieces were longer runs, more mileage and some tempo/marathon pace work in order of importance.
Concentrate on the higher mileage and long runs and you will get the most return on your marathon dollar. Build to an average of 50 to 55 miles per week for at least 6 to 8 weeks before the taper and you will likely reach your goal or exceed it.
I'll try that on my next long run. Speaking of that long run...now that I've done a 22, any reason to do a 24, or even a 26? Is it good, maybe more mentally than anything, to have run 26 before the actual race?
What 'No need for speed' said above: more total mileage, faster long runs. I think 22 miles is long enough for only 50 MPW.
89greg wrote:
I'll try that on my next long run. Speaking of that long run...now that I've done a 22, any reason to do a 24, or even a 26? Is it good, maybe more mentally than anything, to have run 26 before the actual race?
Personally, I have never run more than 21 miles in a single workout with peak mileage of 70-80 mpw. Some of the 20-21 mile runs I do are the T-L-T variety; i.e. [2 mile w/u + 20 min @ 6:50 pace + 10 miles easy + 20 min @ 6:50 pace + 2 mile c/d] 6:50 is my T (threshold) pace as well.
I usually do not close out my "easy" long runs @ MP. That's what the T-L-T and MP specific runs are for. The program I follow staggers these types of workouts with an "easy" long run every other week. Every workout has a purpose.
It sounds like you are progressing well but may want to add some threshold running to some longer runs (16-20 miles) and a 19-20 miler with 15 @ MP 3-4 weeks out.
Keep up the good work and good luck!
kudzurunner wrote:
I agree with Pete, particularly the part about the stars rarely lining up. I had four marathons about 20 years in my past (3:06 debut, 2:53 PB) when I trained for and ran two of them last fall at age 48. I was running 5Ks consistently around 20 flat; the calculators would have said sub 3:20. I ran 50 mpw for 5-6 months, a handful of 20s, and many16 to 10 milers.
Still, I ran 3:39 in early september and 3:30:59 in December. I also ran a 1:31 flat half a month before that second marathon. Turns out I'm a much better half marathoners than marathoner. The calculators are of limited usefulness in certain cases, I've decided, and predicting marathon performance is one of them. Be conservative with your goals and train well. Pace conservatively. It's very hard to optimize the first time out.
It is possible though, and it's SO dependent on weather.
In 2019, I ran a 3:24:33 for my first full. I had done 3 halfs (1:45, fall 2017; 1:39, fall 2018, 1:42, spring 2019).
Went out VERY slow, I remember my first mile was 8:39.
5-mile mark was 39:xx, 10-mile mark was around 77, 13.1 was 1:40:xx, 16 was around 2:02:xx (?), 20 was 2:33, then I slowed a bit and ran 10k in 49:xx to finish 3:24:33. The good news is I ran even effort and still ran sub-8 pace for both segments. Had I paced even better I would have run 1:42/1:40 and finished 3:22. I felt strong at the end, other than my left leg almost trying to collapse at miles 24-25 but I stayed upright.
The second race I ran 3:20, same course mostly, except for a small hill at Mile 19 that wasn't there in 2019, but went out TOO fast. First mile was 6:56. WTF lol!
5-mile mark was 35:10, 10-mile mark was 70 flat, 13.1 was 1:33:xx, 16 was 1:56, 20 was 2:30 and then the wheels came off in 49:xx to finish 3:20 flat. In fairness, the course had no pacers for some reason, but that's no excuse for bad pacing either.
Lesson learned...
So I'm doing Hanson's this year, to simulate what I need to do better and work on my last 10k. Their race plan simulates the last 16 miles of the race, not the first 16, so my legs won't hit the wall at 20-22!
dumprunner wrote:
It's also important to not get to pysched out by the distance. I think a 3:20 is completely doable. The key is long runs at marathon pace + 20 secs. It sounds tough but if you can do that, you can run the pace.
I've run 2 marathons with mid-30 miles per weewk (4 days a week). The first was 3:32, the second was 3:14
I followed the furman FIRST plan for the second.
Interesting, LR = MP goal pace + 20 sec, is that a Hansons-like recommendation? (i.e. 3:20 is a 7:37 so the LR should be 7:57)?
Should it just average 7:57 for the entire run? If you start at 8:40 but work your way down so it averages out to 7:57 is that good enough, or try to run 7:57 each mile regardless?