Elliott never gets the derserved acclamation on this site. Younsters really can't appreciate just how dominant he was at the 1500/mile. No-one beat him ... ever. For a time Ovett had that kind of aura - the power to make the opposition resign themselves to the fact that they were only running for 2nd place. Elliott is an enigma - retiring at 22 his ultimate talent untapped with his best years still in front of him. We will never see his like again.
you therefore are implying ryun woudn't have been capable of re-distributing his energy to run a fast even-paced race from the gun ( with obviously only a likely 55- 56s last lap instead of a 53 ), which i disagree with
ryun isn't stupid & in a race of this calibre he knows he has no chance hanging off at the back 20m behind the rabbit on the 1st/2nd laps, whilst el g & elliot are tucked in right behind at the front
the question is merits of elliot & ryun in a paced race :
quite rightly we have little idea of elliot's potential in a rabitted race as he ran (?) few if any of them & set his 3'35.6wr in an og final - with very likely significantly uneven laps run in it, you'd have to conservatively say he probably was capable of at least a 3'32 - 3'33 in a rabitted race
however, ryun ran his 3'33.1 also on cinders & in a very, very uneven paced race ( see current discussion on this at T&F forums ) - it's listed that he ran his last 1200 in an incredible 2'46.6 ( afer a pedestrian initial 300m of 46.5 ), which indicates to me that if he'd run the race hard from the gun, a likely time of 3'30 - 3'31 ( remember on cinders !!! )
now, i'd bet my house on ryun being capable of running 3'30 - 3'31 in a properly rabbited race that day in '67 - can you make a claim that elliot was capable of the same back in '60 ( 3'35.6 to 3'30 - 3'31 is a long, long way ! ) ?
Between 1996 and 2004 EL G raced in 86 races at 1500m/Mile, one time at 3000m and three races at 5000m. So in a total of 89 races (if we exclude the Atlanta 1500m olympic final) he only lost 6 races of which 2 at 5000m (which is not his speciality). This is a peerless runner in all respects.
Actually, how many times did Morceli lose between '91 and his retirement??? My guess is that is wasn't many more than El G. I always think of Morceli as equally dominant over 1500m. His only BIG, BIG miss was in Barcelona - like El G's in Sydney.
Also, I agree that Elliot was the best ever, period.
If you trained all of history's best milers together today and put them in one race on their best day I'd pick:
1st - Elliot
2nd - Coe
3rd - Ryun
4th - El G
5th - Morceli
6th - Walker
All of those guys are physical monsters. The difference between the VERY, VERY best and the other guys is their ability to say, 'F-ck you. I ain't gonna lose today.' Elliot and Coe are the ONLY guys on that list to NEVER falter when the bigs cips were down. Ryun, Morceli and El G were all close and would be racing for 3rd.
Come on, now, Elliot raced in an era of inferior athletes. Might was well pick someone as capable as Zatopek to take down Gebrselassie.
Get off the Elliot bandwagon. He was great, but Alan Webb would hand him his head...
In an Olympic style race no one beats Coe in the 1500m.
El G would never have let a race between him and Coe become a slow affair. He would probably have used one of his countrymen as a pacer and then the race would probably have been sub 3,29, which is faster than Coes PB (he has done this in championchip finals).
Muger Cement wrote:
Come on, now, Elliot raced in an era of inferior athletes. Might was well pick someone as capable as Zatopek to take down Gebrselassie.
Elliott was a pioneer - he made his rivals look ordinary. Have a look at Snell's PB's for 1500/mile. He ran 2 secs slower for 1500 and only 0.4 secs faster in the mile. Jazy ran 0.9 secs faster than Elliotts fastest mile and Elliott destroyed him in the Olympic final. Remember that athletes of Elliott's day never earned a living from the sport - something which is easily overlooked by detractors of the golden oldies. He had to get a job to support his family and like Bannister was unwilling to sacrifice his career for running glory. In Pirie's biography I remember him relating that he used to train on his local track at night. He had to climb over the perimeter wall - to avoid paying the training fees because he simply did not have the money.
Get off the Elliot bandwagon. He was great, but Alan Webb would hand him his head...
Pick me up from the floor when I have finished laughing. Webb will never win Olympic gold and will never be fit to lace Elliott's spikes ... period.
[quote]The Portland Beaver wrote:
Actually, how many times did Morceli lose between '91 and his retirement??? My guess is that is wasn't many more than El G. I always think of Morceli as equally dominant over 1500m. His only BIG, BIG miss was in Barcelona - like El G's in Sydney. quote]
The reason why Morceli looks as dominant as EL G over 1500m is because he never had a real rival during his peak years like LAGAT or NGENY or EL G. (Before 1996 EL G was not in the same league as Morceli).
However EL G had to take on the best of the best all the time. No wonder he is by far much more dominant than Morceli.
well something should also be said for setting the wr's he did without anyone to push him. morceli can't help it if he didn't have any competition.
classic wrote:
well something should also be said for setting the wr's he did without anyone to push him. morceli can't help it if he didn't have any competition.
exactly - too many people look at times. When athletes set WR's in the past a lot were effectively solo runs with no-one to push them on the final lap. Like boxing you can only beat what's put in front of you and that is why it is so ill-informed to just compare athletes on times. Olympic golds are the ultimate and carry more weight in assessing an athlete's career than any world record. World records will always be broken - olympic gold is the Everest of every athlete's career and anything else is simply secondary.
steffo wrote:
El G would never have let a race between him and Coe become a slow affair. He would probably have used one of his countrymen as a pacer and then the race would probably have been sub 3,29, which is faster than Coes PB (he has done this in championchip finals).
remember el g ran something like 1'48 for the last 800 in athens - he couda probably beaten coe anyways he wanted - off a quick pace or a slow one
You even undersold him - it was a freaking 1:46!
I have two facts which will tell you who I think will finish first and second in this hypothetical three man race:
1. Jim Ryun ran a 46 quarter when he was 19. On cinders. In the 60's.
2. El G ran 3:26 three or four times. Since his record is 3:26.00, I don't think it's a stretch to say he was capable of a 3:25. That is TEN SECONDS faster than Elliot ever ran. 3:26 is another level from 3:30, much less 3:35.
Why are some people so obsessed with el g. Look people, if I could b%$$# slap him in the most important race at the time for either one of us in our lives, so could Coe.
BenjiTheHunted wrote:
You even undersold him - it was a freaking 1:46!
I have two facts which will tell you who I think will finish first and second in this hypothetical three man race:
1. Jim Ryun ran a 46 quarter when he was 19. On cinders. In the 60's.
2. El G ran 3:26 three or four times. Since his record is 3:26.00, I don't think it's a stretch to say he was capable of a 3:25. That is TEN SECONDS faster than Elliot ever ran. 3:26 is another level from 3:30, much less 3:35.
many apologies benji
i shouda checked his splits thoroughly ( especially as i watched that race from about 30 yards away in the seats )
anyhows, with ryun, if as suggested he shouda run 3'30 - 3'31 in an even paced race that day in '67 on cinders, you gotta figure he'd be worth maybe 2 or even 3s quicker on a modern synthetic track, giving him something like a 3'27 - 3'29
i'd probably go for the quicker end of the range ,as according to this photo of his 1500wr ( note: i believe that's keino in the far, far distance ), he was hardly pushed !!!
ryun wouda given el g a very, very good run even at his 3'26 peak
As another old timer, my long standing admiration for Ryan, who suffered for the scandal of holding the athletic events at altitude (whereas the horse’s were excused) at one Olympics and being tripped up be a no-hoper in his second , would place him - where?
I notice most cite the contenders career records - but where would they place assuming they met in a race when they were all at their peak - running the race in the year when they were physically at their best.
One I notice hardly features in the discussion so far is Steve Cram.
In his 1985 form, he would surely been a contender.
He ran 1.42.88 for the 800.
Coe only ran 2 faster and his 1.41 has always been questionable by some as the official timing broke down.
I saw him run a 2.12.88 1000mts on a very windy night at Gateshead when such a time seemed impossible in such conditions.
And of course that’s the year he ran the 3.46 mile, finishing like a train and seemed to have something in reserve.
Also, although his times are not comparable to all the other contenders - I was always equally impressed by the sheer untapped power of Peter Snell. Were the runner I saw in 64 running in this day and age - he’d have been mixing it with the best of the them.
Don't try to apply 2007 values to 1960. Elliott retired to go to university. Physically speaking he had his best years ahead of him. Before then he had tailed off training to focus on his studies. He was Southern Hemisphere and highly limited in the time he could spend racing in the northern hemisphere due to the strict rules on travel expenses in those days.
His Olympic 1500m WR had no pacemakers and he'd just come off anti-biotics.
If you can read The Golden Mile - his autobiography - you should do it. It opens your eyes to a different era. It shows that Elliott was unreal - an animal.
So El G ran faster. But he was 45 years later. For perspective take a look at the world record 45 years before Herb.
did elliot face any kenyans/ethiopians/moroccans/algerians ?