similar to 2004... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWsAACwEki4
similar to 2004... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWsAACwEki4
Malmo, you seem to be under the (false) impression that I am a Dave Wottle detractor; far from it, I am his biggest fan...the biggest. Anyone who can finish 9th in the 1971 NCAA X-C then come back and run a 1:44.3 800 meters will always have my admiration. How many people watching the Munich 800 LIVE were yelling AT him at 400, then yelling FOR him at 750? That's what I mean by Monday morning quarterback. Show me the sound bite that says the Munich 800 went "exactly as I planned". Isn't the story as to why he didn't take off the cap on medal stand that he was still in shock? That doesn't sound like someone in complete control to me. I don't believe that Wottle went into Munich in top form. What were his pre-Olympic European results? Not real great, I believe. Didn't Bowerman allude to such? I don't believe Wottle was the OVERWHELMING favorite for Munich. Arzhanov had the reputation as a racer (1971 Euros) without a fast PB. Also, Ouku was 1970 Commonwealth champ; pretty formidable competition both of them. The Munich 800 was the cusp of a downhill slide for Wottle; 1500 semis, then loss in mile to Polhill at Coca-Cola meet (me thinks). Perfectly understandable considering a hellish long 1972 spring/summer for him.
All I am saying is Munich 800 may be his most memorable race; definitely his luckiest race, but not necessarily his BEST race. Malmo, sometimes we win races we shouldn't; yet lose races we should win. That is the way things play out sometimes, wouldn't you agree?
These people that say they would use Munich 800 as a template for their HS'ers...are they nuts? How often does an 800 play out like that (sometimes sure), but would Wottle RECOMMEND HS'ers race like that in the state champs? Taking a helluva gamble that the field is ALL going to come back to you. No, a far better example for HS'er's is Viren's 10,000...also at Munich. Why does Wottle get little credit (except from me) for what he did at 1973 NCAA mile in sweltering Baton Rouge, LA? Yeah, you're right, Cleveland is the climatic equivalent of Baton Rouge.
You guys just don't appreciate the fantastic (non-lucky) races Wottle ran outside of Munich. Maybe that's part of the Munich legacy, that people can't get past Munich. Now, go back & re-read my FIRST sentence.
i was just about to say we all got super trolled for replying to this guy, and i was in awe of your trollness....
but no...your just a dumbass who really believes what he's saying.
Braavo Furgi wrote:
Wottle had been having injury problems. Wasn't he even beginning to doubt that he would make the team? Trouble is they didn't go out fast enough to break him.
Wottle set the WR (1:44.3) at the trials with a 51.4 last lap, then came back later to finish 2nd in the 1500 (to Jim Ryun) with another sub 52.0 lap. A total of 6 races in 10 days, if Wottle was doubting that he would make the team, he's one of the biggest sandbaggers in the history of the sport.
Wottle's six races at the 1972 US Olympic Trials:
800
6/29 H 1:49.8 (1st, -0.1)
6/30 S 1:47.4 (3rd, +0.1)
7/01 F 1:44.3 (1st, -0.7) EQUALS WORLD RECORD (Peter Snell 1962, Ralph Doubell 1968)
1500
7/06 H 3:43.7 (1st, -0.1)
7/07 S 3:44.7 (2nd, 0.0)
7/08 F 3:42.3 (2nd, +0.8)
NewToCollege wrote:
similar to 2004...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWsAACwEki4
Thank you so much for that. How many times was Borzakovski (sp) severely criticized after races because he left it too late. What about Mark Everett. Playing devil's advocate for a second, just say Wottle had lost by 4/100ths, wouldn't he be considered the goat rather than the GOAT (see Mo Greene)? Would someone at least admit Wottle had a fair dose of luck, plus his talent, IN THAT ONE RACE....someone? Sometimes races just pan out.
Here's the point mr.Rodentia: Wottle did not think he had a chance of doing better by going out faster, OTHERWISE HE WOULD HAVE GONE OUT WITH THE PACK. By running HIS OWN RACE, he prevailed. THAT is the lesson for all your putative high schoolers: know your strengths and race to them. Did he get "lucky"? Perhaps. But his "luck" would probably have been worse by running a more conventional race.
For malmo: is his 1:44.3 the only negative split 800 WR ever?
As Furgi wrote, after the trials I believe Wottle had injury problems,(achilles?), so was at less than 100% at the Games. Perhaps short on sprint work he ran the race he was capable of-even splits, using his 1500 strength to reel everyone in.
I don't think he was in 1:44 shape at the Games so I tend to agree that he was a bit lucky. The first 400 could have been 51-leaving him too far back too pull off of anyone in the last 400.
XCTC wrote:
For malmo: is his 1:44.3 the only negative split 800 WR ever?
I don't know. You would have to think that Ryun did it when he broke the WR for 880 yards (1:44.9 = 1:44.3 for 800)
Finally people are beginning to acknowledge the point I have been making all along. If he had won by 1 second, or even 1/2 a second, I would agree (fantastic, dominating performance), but when it's 4/100ths of a second (particularly the way he ran it) then he has an angel on his shoulder...somewhat. Let's look at this situation from the polar opposite; just say a runner goes out hard and holds on by 4/100ths - wouldn't your initial reaction be "he got lucky there"? Isn't the excitement of the race partly clouding your judgement??? You all seem to think I am begrudging him his gold medal; I'm not. I didn't see him cheating any; he deserved everything he got/earned. Would you be lauding his performance so enthusiastically if he wasn't American, though?
Metahuman wrote:
As Furgi wrote, after the trials I believe Wottle had injury problems,(achilles?), so was at less than 100% at the Games. Perhaps short on sprint work he ran the race he was capable of-even splits, using his 1500 strength to reel everyone in.
I don't think he was in 1:44 shape at the Games so I tend to agree that he was a bit lucky. The first 400 could have been 51-leaving him too far back too pull off of anyone in the last 400.
This is ridiculous. A 51 second first lap would have decimated anyone who attempted such an idiotic move. As it were, they went out in 52.3, still WAY over the heads of anyone in that race except Wottle.
Wottle was the World Record holder. The 800 field was one of the weakest in the (modern) history of the sport. The gap between Wottle's best time and the next best runner's best was 1.0 seconds - in an 800! Wottle was a man among boys.
In spite of the blinders that so many wear when reviewing this race, the video shows that Wottle was in perfect position and in complete control with 350 meters to go.
1972 Olympic final/time/best 1972/(best if prior to 1972)
1. 1:45.9 1:44.3 Wottle
2. 1:45.9 1:45.3 Arzhanov
3. 1:46.0 1:45.87 Boit
4. 1:46.5 1:45.7 Kemper (1:45.4)
5. 1:46.5 1:46.0 Ouko
6. 1:46.6 1:46.45 Carter (1:46.2)
7. 1:47.1 1:46.3 Kupczyk (1:46.2)
8. 1:48.0 1:45.4 Fromm
After ignoring the point of my post, you are basically saying that ANY race that comes down to 4/100ths is a matter of luck. As malmo points out, this is not necessarily so. As for your last point:
Would you be lauding his performance so enthusiastically if he wasn't American, though?
Yes. And my proof of this is the masterful work by Borzakovskiy in the 2004 race. I was wooting out of my chair when I watched hat one at the time. This, despite his defeat of one of my favorite runners of all time(WK).There is no ignoring that THAT 800 is a race that was run strategically, and successfully. "But he came up short so many other times!" you sputter. Yes, that is why they run CHAMPIONSHIP races. To see who is ready on the day, with all the tools at full operation, including knowledge of self.
Malmo, 2 points:
1) Wasn't that 1:44.3 run in late June? Wasn't Munich in early September? Do you think Wottle was in WR shape in Munich? I don't. I always thought the track pundits of the day considered Wottle & Arzhanov to be co-favorites. As it turned out, those pundits were 100% correct. How could Wottle be overwhelming favorite when, to my knowledge, he had no international experience...prior to the pre-Olympic carnival of meets leading up to Munich.
2) Your "Wottle in complete control at 350 meters" comment baffles me some. Didn't he win by 4/100ths? Doesn't sound like someone in COMPLETE control...considering what was at stake.
As always...I remain,
The Rodent
Point 1) I wouldn't say Wottle ran to his strengths in Munich, rather I believe Wottle ran (particularly the 1st lap) to what he was physically capable of at the time (nagging achilles). And that the race definitely played out in his favor...as it turned out. If there is 4/100ths in it at the end both competitors are going all-out. Did you see either Arzhanov or Wottle easing up at the tape? I didn't.
Point 2) Borzakovskiy obviously learned from prior mistakes by staying within striking distance at Athens. You should have seen some of the races he had run prior. Just ask Larry Rawson.
GIVE IT UP YOU DUMBASSSSS
Rodent, GET OVER IT. Wottle set the WR record on July 1st. What difference does it make? He was heads and shoulders above one of the weakest fields ever. That makes him the overwhelming favorite by any measure. The World Record holder delivered the Gold in one of the most memorable races in all of Olympic history. That's what legends do. That WHY they call them "legends."
WHAT might I ask is "international experience"? Six (1-3-4-5-6-9) of the top ten 800 meter runners in the world ran the US Olympic Trials. Wottle was a seasoned veteran, with proven mastery over the best that the World had to offer. He did it OVER, and OVER and OVER and OVER. At the 72 Olympics, he did it OVER and OVER and OVER again! Wottle's win in Munich ranks right up there in the Parthenon of Olympic memories.
As far as I know, Pre-Olympic races against 1:46-1:47 types mean nothing.
I can't even believe that you continue to chase your tail endlessly over this. Nothing you've posted reconciles with the facts or the video record.
WOTTLE WAS A MAN AMONG BOYS.
I'm sorry that no one else on the planet appreciates your discriminating palate for Wottle trivia. Winning the NCAA's in bumf*** Looziana doesn't compare to winning the Olympic Gold.
That video was awesome!!! I love the fact that he's running in the olympic 800M wearing a baseball cap. That's one cool guy!
Malmo, I don't have any agenda against Wottle, far from it; it's against all these post-race johnnies. It's easy to say he ran the perfect race AFTER THE FACT. Say that 4 X 200 meters at 26.5 each would win the gold BEFOREHAND and most people would say yer crazy. That's the jist of what I having been saying all this while. As Wottle said himself "I won the race, no matter how you play it out". I agree with you that, generally, the depth of the final was somewhat lacking. Makes one wonder how Vasala would have impacted that race, doesn't it? I think the 800 played into Wottle's hand more UNintentionally, than intentionally.
I'm done.
The Rodent
Dude, you over think and don't see the obvious. They aren't running interval start/individual time trials, where coming up just 4/100ths of a second in front of a unknown winning target time might be said to be leaving something to chance. They are running head to head. Wottle can see his targets and as the strongest /fastest guy, he positions himself where needs to be relative to the other runners during all parts of the race, including in front of all the rest at the finish line.
thanks for the Larry clip - genius of the game
OK. 0.04s is probably closer than it needed to be. but clearly wottle spends the first 200 thinking "what the hell? these guys are gonna die". he clearly take measure of the field with 300 to go. he may well have won by more, but we'll never know how much more was in his tank, and the other medalists hung in that last 50 better than they should have given the pace.
would any of this been quite as memorable if he hadn't worn that cap?