Has anyone ever run faster at comparable altitude?
Has anyone ever run faster at comparable altitude?
old tymer wrote:
Correct. All this "conversion" of his 3:34.9 to something else is pure nonsense. In fact, Keino had many opportunities to run faster at sea level and he never came close. He had his day of days on the absolute best day...that's the beginning and the end of the story.
Quite true. I think it's important to note that while his best mark came at altitude, it was on a synthetic track and those weren't terribly common at the time. So the altitude and running surface probably more or less canceled each other out.
old tymer wrote:Otherwise, Ryun trounced him the three other times they met--at 2 miles, 1500, and the mile.
I don't have my files in front of me right now, but I know Keino beat Ryun one more time at the mile/1500m in '69 or '70. Their career head-to-head record in this event was 2-2.
old tymer wrote:Keino was a brilliant but erratic talent; he lost a good many races, including many that he should have won.
He wasn't erratic according to the guys at T&FN. He was ranked #1 or #2 in the mile every year for 8 years in a row, a feat which has not yet been equaled. He took 1st or 2nd in every 1500/mile race he ever entered between 1964 and 1972 save one (when he was 3rd). His record at Olympic & Commonwealth Games was 5 golds, two silvers and a bronze.
old tymer wrote:At the end of the day, Keino's 3:34.9 at Mexico City probably "proves" that he was ultimately capable of 3:34.5 or 3:34.0...that's about it. Once again: there's nothing in his performance history to suggest that he was affected at all at the 1500/mile distance by altitude. That may sound crazy, impossible, or whatever--but you really need to examine his career stats closely. So, any formula that claims he was "really" capable of 3:26, or 3:29, or 3:31, or whatever, is meaningless.
I'll agree with that 100%. I saw Joe Vigil hyped Keino's time this same way at a coaching clinic and it made me wonder what he was trying to sell me because I KNOW he knows better than that. Trying to figure out these kinds of conversions is a fun parlor game but shouldn't be taken with any seriousness.
old tymer wrote:
At the end of the day, Keino's 3:34.9 at Mexico City probably "proves" that he was ultimately capable of 3:34.5 or 3:34.0...that's about it. Once again: there's nothing in his performance history to suggest that he was affected at all at the 1500/mile distance by altitude. That may sound crazy, impossible, or whatever--but you really need to examine his career stats closely. So, any formula that claims he was "really" capable of 3:26, or 3:29, or 3:31, or whatever, is meaningless.
That's ridiculous. Keino may have been better adapted than most (Ryun included) to running at altitude, and it's hard to put an exact value on altitude's effect, but it was certainly more than 0.4 to 0.9 seconds. 7400ft is pretty serious. The guy had to use oxygen like anybody else, and oxygen is relatively scarce in Mexico City. I think anybody who has run any hard runs at that kind of altitude will agree that 7400 ft is a lot more than just a negligible amount of altitude.
Keino won by a huge margin over one of the greatest milers ever, who also ran a great race. If Kip Keino never existed, and Jim Ryun had run 3:37 to win in '68, people would still be talking about what a phenomenal race he ran and how that time converted to something significantly faster than the then-world record.
I personally think the whole affair was a little unfair to Ryun. I seem to remember reading that he would have liked to have trained at altitude for the Games, but the Olympic coaching staff was having none of it. Still, Keino's run was phenomenal and gutsy as hell.
Altitude running is hard wrote:
Keino probably lost a couple of seconds because of the altitude, if that.
Horse-crud. The altitude probably didn't effect Keino much at all. Testing showed the sea level guys were fine at altitude at events up to 2 min in duration. After that, their performances fell off drastically. The altitude guys, like Keino weren't hampered much until about 4 min in. Keino wouldn't have run much faster at sea level. Would Ryun have won at sea level? That's not a given with him trying to get over mono. He probably would have, but that's not for sure, and no one will ever know. Keino won. But he couldn't have done it without Jipcho. I've seen those remarks from Jipcho elsewhere. He was speaking on Keino's claim of death threats after he lost (I think) the CG 5k. Who knows what was really going on? You can see Keino give up against Liquori on youtube. It is kind of dissapointing.
Don't listen to Squires. He'll tell you altitude doesn't matter half the time, if not all the time. Go ahead and try and race at altitude. It's a killer. He'll ignore the fact that Ryun's first race against Keino after the games he ran Keino down even though Ryun was just going through the motions (it was indoors so it doesn't count, right?). Keino was a super runner, but not necessarily a super miler. Squires seems to have his tongue permanently stuck to African ball sacks when it comes to Ryun and a few others. That's how he was bounced from the TafNews board (that board does suck, I'll admit). Ryun was a better miler than Keino. He didn't stick around as long. So what? Few do, few will. Elliot and others had shorter careers. Ryun took the mile and 1500 records down by over 2 secs each. Keino was not that kind of miler. He was at his best 3k to 5k. He ran 7:39 in the 60's! Yeah, give us the TafNews rankings which contradict themselves every year. They have their own agenda over there.
I don't believe Keino ever ran in the 3:35's; but had a few in the 3:36's. Wasn't his best mile 3:53.5? Ryun had a decent race at Mexico City; altho Bodo Tummler probably had a better one (all things factored in). Also John Whetton from GB who was 5th & Euro champ in 1969 ran 3:42. A lot of seasoned Euros were in the 3:43 to 3:45 range at Mexico City; so compared to them I felt Ryun ran decent. As a sidebar, every world record from 100 meters thru 800 meters was broken or tied at 1968 Olympics; that says something about altitude.
jsquire wrote:
[quote]old tymer wrote:Otherwise, Ryun trounced him the three other times they met--at 2 miles, 1500, and the mile.
I don't have my files in front of me right now, but I know Keino beat Ryun one more time at the mile/1500m in '69 or '70. Their career head-to-head record in this event was 2-2.
Not to my knowledge. In their "amateur" careers, I only know that they met 4 times, including Mexico City, and Ryun won 3 of 4. The races were: the 1966 2 mile; 1967 1500 (LA) and mile (London); and 1968 1500 (Mexico City).
old tymer wrote:Keino was a brilliant but erratic talent; he lost a good many races, including many that he should have won.
He wasn't erratic according to the guys at T&FN. He was ranked #1 or #2 in the mile every year for 8 years in a row, a feat which has not yet been equaled. He took 1st or 2nd in every 1500/mile race he ever entered between 1964 and 1972 save one (when he was 3rd). His record at Olympic & Commonwealth Games was 5 golds, two silvers and a bronze.
You have to go beyond world rankings alone. Keino tended to run very well in championship meets (a career plus, certainly), but that race against Liquori was a shocking cop-out, for example...
no indoor ? counted in head to head?
no one wrote:
no indoor ? counted in head to head?
I'm honestly not aware of any mile/1500 of this period--except Mexico City--in which Keino beat Ryun. If there are any, I'd love to hear of them.
the only altitude 1500m's ever run faster than Keino's 3:34.9 were run in Nairobi by a few Kenyans. The best, unless I missed one, was this one:
634 3:33.1 Jim Ryun USA 29.04.47 1 Los Angeles 08.07.1967
634 3:33.1A Laban Rotich KEN 20.01.69 1 Nairobi 06.06.1998
Okay, I had to include Ryun there because he was the name right above. I'm not sure what Nairobi's altitude is, but certainly lower than 7400 feet.
nairobi's 5500 feet.
rotich ran 3:29 elsewhere, not at altitude, I believe.
I knew they had run at least 13:14 and 27:46 in Nairobi. It surprised me that so many fast 1500s were run there.
634 3:33.1A Laban Rotich 1 Nairobi 06.06.1998
696 3:33.3A John Kibowen 2 Nairobi 06.06.1998
1018 3:34.0A Moses Kiptanui 1 Nairobi 13.06.1992
1500 3:34.8A Joseph Chesire 2 Nairobi 13.06.1992
1250 3:34.4A Erustus Limo 1 Nairobi 12.06.1999
1500 3:34.8A Augustine Choge 1 Nairobi 07.05.2005
Keino ran a dominating race. But the altitude is an x factor. Heb Elliot's performance on a clay/cinder track in Rome (rumored he was ill as well) may have been better. Certainly way before his time. Michel Jazy was a 3:53 miler - and never in the race.
actually - a bit of a loaded question. I ran a mile race, I think the Sunkist Games in LA ... with both of em in it. 71 or 72. The first meeting between the two since the 68 Oly. Ryun won in a pedestrian (thanks to a walk in the park first 440) 4:06.xx Keino was a second or so behind. Actually may be the only indoor meeting between the two. But I don't know.
quantum wrote:
Keino ran a dominating race. But the altitude is an x factor. Heb Elliot's performance on a clay/cinder track in Rome (rumored he was ill as well) may have been better. Certainly way before his time. Michel Jazy was a 3:53 miler - and never in the race.
Jazy BECAME a 3:53 miler; he wasn't one in 1960. Not that this should take anything away from the quality of Elliott's Rome race.
Come on wrote:
I personally think the whole affair was a little unfair to Ryun. I seem to remember reading that he would have liked to have trained at altitude for the Games, but the Olympic coaching staff was having none of it. Still, Keino's run was phenomenal and gutsy as hell.
Well, I don't know how long we're talking about, but Ryun definitely trained at altitude (Flagstaff) that summer. He stayed in my dorm at NAU, and I think he may have had a part-time job (photographer) with the local newspaper.
Somebody wrote:
In their "amateur" careers, I only know that they met 4 times, including Mexico City, and Ryun won 3 of 4. The races were: the 1966 2 mile; 1967 1500 (LA) and mile (London); and 1968 1500 (Mexico City).
Ah, but what about their heat in the 1972 Olympics?
I have lived at altitude for my whole life. 5500 ft. or higher. I have raced at 7700 ft and sea level. For any of you to say that there is no difference is just stupid. But I do believe that being from altitude I am more adapt, and could run faster, than a sea level bloke. From my experiences I would say that Keino could have run 5 to 7 seconds faster. This is about the difference that I have run.
Well, I don't know how long we're talking about, but Ryun definitely trained at altitude (Flagstaff) that summer. He stayed in my dorm at NAU, and I think he may have had a part-time job (photographer) with the local newspaper.[/quote]
Thats kind of funny because the summer before he spent at Adams State College in Colorado, when he came down from there(7400 ft)he ran his best mile 3:51.1 then a month later beat Keino in the 1500 in LA with another world record 3:33.1. Why did he change from Colorado after setting two WR? Just strange.
Anyway i remember when he talked about 68 he admitted to making a tactical error, he thought it was Jipcho who was still setting the pace and knew he could not hold it. When he realized it was Keino out in front he knew he was in trouble and tried to close the gap, thats about when Keino took off. Ryun used to talk about how the Kenyans ran as a team, but eventually i think he knew it sounded more like sour grapes so he quit talking about it in those terms.
I think Keino has talked about it as team work as well, Jipcho taking it out to see what Ryun would do,ie go to the front, when he didn't Keino took over, Keino pushed the pace as he had been out kicked by Ryun twice before
this time Keino got a good gap and kept going.
Another funny thing Ryun trained at 7400 ft, Keino in Nyeri, Kenya at 5900 ft.
I agree I think Elliot's race was better.