Gels on Long Runs for Marathoners

I had several football coaches like you several decades back. "Move it, move it, move it and stay away from that water."

I don't consume carbohydrates on any long runs except for one "dress rehearsal". I'm a 2:35 guy who has never hit the wall in a marathon and who has always run either dead even or negative splits.

Gels defeat the purpose of the long run, really. You get accustomed to the glycogen depletion. And you don't need to do in all your long runs what you plan to do on race day, because race day is about pulling out the stops and giving yourself advantages that you don't otherwise have (like sports drink).

"Gels defeat the purpose of the long run, really."

While I respect your viewpoint, I don't know that its exclusively true, nor does it apply across the full range of training cycles or emphasis'. Your statement may be partially true during base phase, like I stated earlier, but not necessarily so during race prep phase. Also, I have to wonder how the ingestion of some simple carbohydrates "defeat" the purpose of long runs, which is to increase leg strength, work on both physiological and biomechanical efficiency, and develop cardiovascular fitness. The actual aspect being worked on relative to the type of long run one is doing.

This thread, I think, is assigning to much credit to a simple sugar. Like I said earlier, if you've not trained your body how to use its fuel systems during the base phase, no amount of gel avoidance is going to matter during race prep.

This thread has also not differentiated between the fuel of choice for 'fast' marathoning, and not fast marathoning. Carbohydrate is the preferred fuel the harder you run. Check p.42-45 of Advanced Marathoning by Pfitzinger. "Carbohydrate is a more efficient energy source than fat." And, "...fat requires more oxygen per calorie released than does carbohydrate".

While our body stores exceedingly more fat than carbohydrate, it remains that carbohydrate is the fuel for fast marathons. If you're not using it during your long runs, fine, your loss. Its not like you can store *more* carbohydrate but you can burn more fat. I will note the reason one hits the wall is not because they are not able to access their fat stores. Pfitz notes that the body stores roughyl 2,000 to 2,500 calories of carbohydrate, which suggests when properly loaded, an athlete doing a run which will primarily rely on carbohydrate ingestion should have access to carbohydrate if the run will exceed the amount of calories stored. Nothing is gain by complete glycogen depletion. Nowhere have I read the claims made here, that depletion prepares you for anything. You can't increase your glycogen loading capacity...

There are arguably a few different types of long runs, LSD (for aerobic condition and leg strength), progression runs (for leg strength, aerobic conditioning, and pace control), and MP runs. It's silly not to use gels during your workouts if you're doing anything but LSD, which is a run used primarily in base phase.

What do you think the elites put in their bottles placed at the elite tables? Water? No, generally they have a drink which contains some carbohydrate and likely some protein, which they've used in practice. I will also draw your attention to p. 56 of the same book, which simply states "an alternative method [to liquid ingestion] of taking in carbohydrate during the marathon OR [emphasis added] during your long run is to use energy gels"...

of course, ymmv.

eb

Good points.

I experimented a bit with this. For one marathon cycle (last three months) I took gels on all the long runs, even the easy paced ones of 2:00 - 2:30.

While this made the long runs more comfortable I wasn't using the extra carbohydrates to get close to marathon pace on all these long runs. Taking the gels (or any calories) on easy long runs seemed to make the body less efficient at using available carbs, since I was getting trained to expect carbs at an easy pace.

For example, when I started taking gels on long runs the energy boost from having it would appear to kick in after about 5-10 minutes and then last quite a while. After I'd been taking the gels for several months the energy boost came on quicker and didn't last as long.

So the next marathon cycle I stopped taking gels on easy paced runs, but did take them on all long runs where I did tempo pace running, and most runs with marathon pace in them. The longer, sustained boost from the gels seemed to return when I did this.

My intuitive explanation would be that by depriving the body of carbs on some long runs teaches the body to be a bit more sparing with how it uses carbs. The more sustained marathon pace running you can do without taking carbs the more sparing you'll be at using them, it seems.

The analogy might be to hill training. Why run up hills if you're going to race on the track, for example? Carb deprivation running seems a bit like hill training for your fuel system. Closer to the race you want to mimic the race more, so the carb deprivation runs should be done in the real base phase.

MTH wrote:

MAYEROFF wrote:

YOU ARE A LITTLE GIRL IF YOU HAVE TO TAKE GELS ON YOUR GOSHDARN LONG RUNS!!! A LITTLE WATER, THAT'S ALL YOU NEED.

Strong words from someone who needs a IV from Starbucks to make it through his day.

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Hey man the difference is that I am not stopping at Starbucks during my long runs! I only use the Starbucks shots to wake up, not to get through the long runs.

I'll have a nice Triple Shot tommorrow morning at 3:00am before my 20miler at 5:20 per mile.

Jason

I've heard/read from various sources that during the training for a marathon, you shouldn't go over 20 miles for the long run. ???

Jason why do you run at 3am? Where do you do your 20 miler at? Just curious, good luck with your training. How's it been?

I should have specified "defeats ONE of the purposes". My understanding is that by training to glycogen depletion, you're training your body to metabolize fat more effectively (perhaps with less oxygen? just speculating).

But you might be right - I'm relying on my experience more than anything. Given how much better I am at the marathon than any other distance (seriously, it's beyond ridiculous), it's hard not to assume that when it comes to the marathon, I'm doing practically everything right.

I'm intrigued that you mention that the body stores 2000-2500 calories. Most runners burn like 110 calories per mile, right? I run extremely efficiently, with almost no vertical motion. I wonder if it's conceivable that I burn < 2500 calories in a marathon and just never get to the point of running out of carbohydrates. Interesting...

It's all about carbohydrate sparing.

You simply learn to run down the "tank" at a slower pace.

I agree with your inuitive reasoning here, and it agrees with my own experience- and I've experimented with everything from gatorade to just water to no water (nothing).

What I have also learned is that you have really got to load up immediately after the workouts- gatorade being my choice of replenishment. Nutrition, fluids, etc. when you are not running is as critical as anything else during training.

Just like to respond a little to your post...

dotato wrote:

"Gels defeat the purpose of the long run, really."

This thread has also not differentiated between the fuel of choice for 'fast' marathoning, and not fast marathoning. Carbohydrate

It's silly not to use gels during your workouts if you're doing anything but LSD, which is a run used primarily in base phase.

eb

The long run is seperate from any MP type work, so yes gels defeat the purpose of the long run because part of the point is to prolong how long you go with out tanking.

This thread is on Letsrun. We only aspire to Fast Marathon. Not fast marathoning is for us to ridicule.

Its silly to use gels during your work outs if you are doing anything but LSD. Every other workout would be less than 12M, you don't need gels for a HM so what's the benefit. Its just pussy to take stuff during an interval session.

Elites take stuff in the thier bottles during the Marathon RACE not training. thats a terrible example. No one said you couldn't / shouldn't take water and calories during the marathon.