Botcher, youd cry just jogging at that course. Centro is faster then you and look at his times. Youd cry like a little baby.
Botcher, youd cry just jogging at that course. Centro is faster then you and look at his times. Youd cry like a little baby.
What about the course at Sandy HS in Sandy, OR. The forest section is extremely hilly and narrow. Tough and tiring course.
I dunno, in the SoCal area the Peninsula High XC course got voted (I'm not sure by how large a group of high school runners, but it's something) as the second hardest course in California.
I ran it once, I think the course record was around 16:16 or something. There are fast runners around there, but no real phenoms, so that might be it. The guy who got that time ran around 14:26 on a flat course.
There's almost no freaking downhill there. It's steep uphill, followed by short flat, then more uphill. Then even more uphill. The course is arranged so that you go around a flat part, and the occasional slight downhills are up and down so you don't even notice them.
Of course, I've never ran outside of California, so the other courses are likely harder. But running uphill the entire time has to be worth something.
The 8k at Van Courtlandt is not that difficult. The first and fourth miles are flat; the second mile has some switchback hills; the third mile is generally downhill; the fifth mile just has Cemetery Hill. Those long, flat sections really allow you to make good time and give you a good break between the hills.
the course at mt sac for footlocker west was hard as hell. those hills were steep...
St Christophers in Richmond VA.
8k (thats for high school!) a course that will fry your brain. Visiting teams at dual meets regularly cannot (or could not - been a while since I have been there) get 5 finishers. Its too tough.
Foxboro Golf Course
Oregon, WI
hehe...
no seriously, F*** that course
Sunken Meadows on Long Island. It's been 14 years since I've run there for the 1992 NYS State meet and I still can't forget how awful Cardiac Hill was.
The 8k at Van Cortlandt isn't too bad but the placement of Cemetary Hill in the last mile doesn't help. Definitely slow though.
From my personal experience Holmdel park in nj is pretty tuff butthen again i'm a middle distance type guy.
KC old school wrote:
Kansas City:
Shawnee Mission East High School, X-C course, (on campus), utilized for the big SM East Invitational, yearly that attracted the top talent from KC area and Wichita. Very hilly, very steep, short hill by the tennis courts and very long, moderate hills, up and down for the rest. the only flat part was the 200m finish on the track. I hated that course.
From what I've heard, Saint Mary's in Leavenworth was by far the hardest course in Kansas. Ottawa has been the hardest for quite some time. I'm trying to invision a course at SME, was this before the PV pool was put in?
Atascadero. This probably doesn't qualify for your guidelines of being a major or big invitational, but it would have about 6 - 10 boys large schools competing there. The Atascadero Invite (which may go as some other name I'm not sure anymore) is all hills. I don't know if anyone has ever run under 16 for it. It is a full 3 miles, and the best I've ever seen anyone run on it was high 16's. It slows your 3 mile PR by about 1 min. 50 seconds, so that's pretty substantial. I imagine Chad Hall could probably run mid 15's on this course. Atascadero is in California near San Luis Obispo.
replying wrote:
- Van Cortlandt Park in the Bronx, in New York City is very difficult.
- As is Bowdoin State Park where the NY Federation Meet is held annually.
WHAT!!! Coming from upstate NY, when I was in HS I loved to race on those courses because they were some of the easiest that we ran on. Try Guilderland (Sect2), FM/Green Lakes State Park(sect 3), South Jefferson (Sect 3), Marcus Whitman (Sect 5) if you want some really difficult NYS courses.
Wyco Loco wrote:
KC old school wrote:Kansas City:
Shawnee Mission East High School, X-C course, (on campus), utilized for the big SM East Invitational, yearly that attracted the top talent from KC area and Wichita. Very hilly, very steep, short hill by the tennis courts and very long, moderate hills, up and down for the rest. the only flat part was the 200m finish on the track. I hated that course.
From what I've heard, Saint Mary's in Leavenworth was by far the hardest course in Kansas. Ottawa has been the hardest for quite some time. I'm trying to invision a course at SME, was this before the PV pool was put in?
not sure...I'm going back to the 70's. If I remember, right, new building construction might have KO'd that course sometime in the last 15 years or so. the race started behind the grandstand, went straight up the hill all the way to the police station or pool boundry of the sme grounds.
Is it true no one has broken 16 at Hereford? Has the course changed in 25 years? I was just looking at my running logs from high school, and in 1983 I ran 16:16 at Hereford Invite, placing 17th. Later that year at States I ran only 17:04 for 28th place. Unless I wrote my time wrong, I can't believe no one has run 17 seconds faster than me on that course.
SP girls were always so fine.
Hereford has changed numerous times in the past 25 years. I think it has been lengthened to 3.0mi from 2.9, and the start and finish sections have changed. My first year running on it a guy broke 16, I think it was 2.9mi, there was a section which went around the track. By my senior year it was 3.0mi with no track lap, and most winning times were mid-16's.
It is also not strange to see the fastest times on it being run at Bull Run (which is this weekend) as opposed to States. It seems like every year at States the weather is a factor. A muddy Hereford course can be a bear.
The old SM East course was a bear. The swimming pool was there back in the 70's. That uphill start was awful. My senior year the it had rained all day and by the time varsity ran it was a complete mudpit. That same year was the first time a girl was allowed to run in a boys course country meet. It took a court order to get Tammy Gilpin in and she ran quite well in the JV race.
As far as tough courses... I would think that Rim Rock would have to rank up there. You look at the times through the years and only the very top boys (like Steve Fein) break 16 on that course.
[quote]replying wrote:
- Van Cortlandt Park in the Bronx, in New York City is quote]
The vanny 2.5 mile and 5k courses are NOT hard at all. Lots of flats one minor hill (before the bridge) and one somewhat tough hill (in the back woods). Once you are on top of the "somewhat tough hill" it is all downhill and flat.
I ran 10:46 on that sme course....and ran 10:13 at sm park..The Lawrence course was not that tough, but it had that finish up a long gradual hill that was an illusion. you could see the finsish banners and thought you were only 200-300 yards from the finish, but once you crested the hill, had another 200 yards to go...there was a girl who trained with sms in the early 70's named sally arthur...all the guys gave her crap, but she hung in there....i don't know if she ever got to run. (after i left).
Sally Arthur had a pretty good high school career after that. Once Tammy Gilpin got in tha opened the door to girls. I remember Wyandotte had a girl that was one of their top five runners and Wyandotte was still pretty good in cross country at the time. Girls didn't get their own teams until 76 or so. I think my best at SME was 10:55. I was barely in the top 25 my senior year. I never ran great at SM Park, 10:20 was my best. Cross Country was never my forte.